Cheap Ebay Unit

[Slash]

Instead of a 'cheap' new unit, watch eBay for name-brand used equipment. I just bought a ThermalDynamics PakMaster 75XL Plus for $700. It is three years old, works and looks like new. The seller was ~200 miles away, so I went and picked it up in person. This saved me some money on shipping, and I was able to inspect prior to paying.

You will have to be patient, but deals can be found. I've been looking for a plasma cutter for almost a year. I've passed on a lot of 'cheaper' units. Remember - "The bitterness of poor quality lasts far longer than the sweetness of low price."


IMO, Sears/Craftsman has not made anything of good quality in 20 years or more. Their hand tools are poorly machined and the chrome plating is crap. The power tools are all imported plastic junk, manufactured by the lowest bidder.

85+% of the hand tools in my shop are Snap-On, maybe 10% Mac. Both dealers treat me well, and never asked questions on the rare occasion when I break a tool. My Mac dealer came to my house once on a Saturday when I was in the middle of a project and needed a tool. Does Sears make housecalls? I do keep a few Craftsman tools in my truck because they are cheap and I don't care if they get rusty/broken/lost.

I have more money invested in my Snap-On boxes than most people have in their entire tool collection. There is a difference in quality. I can pull out the bottom drawer and stand on it to access stuff in the top of my box (and I'm not a small guy ), let's see someone do that with a Craftsman toolbox. The old (~ pre-1980) Craftsman stuff was good, sadly that is not the case today.

[WildWeasel]

The lawsuit you guys are bantering about is in reference to items like Power Tools sold by sears with the CRAFTSMAN name applied.

Much like the circular saw sold by Sears with the CRAFTSMAN name applied, it is clearly marked " Made In China ".

People also get confused about the Craftsman " Guaranteed For Life " policy. If you read that policy going back decades it clearly states " hand tools ". Even the old " Made In USA " Craftsman power tools are not covered by this.

Model # - 10860

There has been nothing mentioned in the complaint filed pertaining to " HAND TOOLS " i.e. non-powered tools with the CRAFTSMAN name.

Harcosparky - you are on target with the lawsuit. It was filed in Fed Court by New Yorkers attempting to get it classifed as a class action invoking California consumer law. Feds rejected it and I think it has been remanded to California State Courts for consideration as of last year.

[harcosparky]

Is that the same lawsuit that was thrown out of Federal Court in an order signed by US District Court Judge John F. Grady dated May 14, 2006 ?

I am somewhat familiar with that lawsuit, and the it deals with quantity of foreign content. The comment in that article

Pictures attached to the complaint show metal parts from Austria, Denmark, China, India and Mexico on Craftsman tools labeled as "Made in the USA."

Now the last time I looked at a Craftsman screwdriver, wrench, or socket I saw not metal parts attached to them as described in the lawsuit. This is all based on a California state law pertaining to " domestic content vs foreign content "

The suit was thrown out of Federal Court so let's see if it has wings and flies anywhere else.

Interesting - the case was tossed from Fed court so they filed to have it remanded to CA state court, that motion too was DENIED by Judge Manuel L. Real.

I like how the Judges told the plaintiff attorneys " creative lawyering " won't work here. Here is the quote from court filings ...

... and we reiterate, that creative
lawyering will not be allowed to smudge the line drawn by
[CAFA] ...

It is an interesting filing, nothing has been heard re:the case in a courtroom on any evidence. we'll see.


Sorry for all the edits, but I was not gonna comment about this case based on articles in the media, nor wikipedia entries so I searched for and found the lawsuit in US Court records.

But imagine this, you live in New York and go to Federal Court in an effort to have California law applied to your suit.

a lawsuit filed by three New York customers who felt betrayed when they learned that not all Sears' Craftsman tools were made in the United States.

Case 1:05-cv-04743 Document 45 Filed 05/24/2006

[Toysrme]

I have 4 double/triple rolling boxes of Craftsman tools dating back to the 1950's. I have my grandfathers tools, my fathers tools, and tools I acquired on my own.

No ****... That's back when they were made in America, and the majority of their hand tools actually had quality. Craftsman's bull comes from the EXACT same plant Kobalt's comes from...
To be made in America, it simply has to have the most expencive part (The packaging) must *mostly* be made, or assembled in America.

I got news for ya... How much do you think that wratchet, or wrench costs in steel to be dropped in a forge in China VS that box it comes in from the USA, and there's a possibility that those parts are sourced from Mexico.

When ten thousand wrenches come over on the boat, go to a factory line where a thousand plastic boxes come from Mexico, and it get's put together in the USA guess what? It's "MADE IN THE USA".
For that matter. Craftsman just flat out lies...

"Sears, which has advertised the brand as produced by American workers, asserts it never claimed the entire line was made within the U.S. borders, just more than 1,600 of Craftsman's 5,000-plus hand tools."

December 8, 2004
A class action lawsuit against Sears, Roebuck and Co alleges that Sears conducted false advertising and consumer fraud by advertising that its Craftsman tool line is "Made in the USA."
The suit alleges that promotions in ads, the website, on signs and labels claiming that Craftsman is "Made in the USA" led consumers to purchase the tools out of a sense of patriotism. Consumers were also led to believe that Craftsman is of high quality because it is "Made in the USA."
Pictures attached to the complaint show metal parts from Austria, Denmark, China, India and Mexico on Craftsman tools labeled as "Made in the USA."
"Sears has falsely touted Craftsman tools as 'Made in the USA' when the Federal Trade Commission has issued guidelines stating that such a claim is proper only where all or substantially all of the product is U.S.A. made. Sears Craftsman is misleading consumers by invoking that claim," said Barbara J. Hart, attorney for the tool buyers.
The lawsuit, which seeks class-action status and unspecified damages, was filed last week in New York State Supreme Court in Manhattan.
Tool buyers Kenneth Vigiletti, Sidney Hyatt and Elaine Hyatt are the plaintiffs named in the suit.

Ignorance is bliss dude, but it's still ignorance. No excuse for that.

[harcosparky]

Craftsman = quality would only be something older people would know. It's been decades since their stuff was actually quality. Their old stuff was more akin to today's Snap-on (etc) level tools. I'm younger. Craftsman = complete crap to me because it's been that way aslong as I have known it. Now they're mostly cheap entry level junk just like everyone else you find in a store. Their hand-tools are no different than Kobalt, Stanley, etc. Chinese made & they tear up in a "professional" setting.

Craftsman hand tools " Chinese made? "

Looking at several screwdrivers, a ratchet and some sockets purchased within the last 6 months from Sears they all are engraved/marked ....
" CRAFTSMAN ... Made In USA "
Do you really think they are Chinese made?

Does Sears sell Chinese made hand tools? Yeah they do. Are they marked " Craftsman "? No, the are marked " COMPANION "

Has Sears Craftsman tools " gone to crap " -OR- this is more likely. Have other brands ( i.e. Kobalt, Stanley, etc ) IMPROVED the quality of what they sell.

I have 4 double/triple rolling boxes of Craftsman tools dating back to the 1950's. I have my grandfathers tools, my fathers tools, and tools I acquired on my own.

Oh yeah I have some SNAP-ON hand tools, they are TRASH. " Tamper Proof TORX Driver " 3/8" drive, cost me $20 EACH .... can't find the Snap-On guy to exchange them. Went to Sears and bought some Craftsman Torx drives and drilled them out to be Tamper-Proof. Once when I went to exchange on the Snap-On guy questioned me as to " how the heck are you using them? "

Sears never question any exchanges from me, of course I have not had to exchange a Craftsman hand tool in over 10 years. Sadly they won't 'exchange' a LOST TOOL.

As I said earlier ... Sear brought on a cheaper line of hand tools " Companion Line " to compete with lower price junk sold elsewhere. These are Chinese made.

Oh and yeah Sears is open SEVEN DAYS A WEEK. Try getting the Snap-On guy out on a Sunday morning! LOL

[Toysrme]

Hyundai may not be the best example.
Yeah. Their **** is better. The new generation Sonata has fairly well picked off the American engineered cars in testing right now. :\ Nothing to be proud of, but atleast we build them here like almost everything else.

Having been through T-Ten (Toyota's specific tech training program). I'd **** well own a Sonata before I'd own an American sedan! I do have an F150, but it's a POS engineering, quality of components, and the actual installation of components I see on a daily basis with Toyota/Lexus.So, the example would be ebtter served backwards at the current moment if you wanna go with cars.





But there-in lies what I was getting at. I don't drive the '99 F150 on a daily basis. That's what the ES 300, or Civic are for. I know exactly what I need a truck to do when I need one. So I bought one that fit what I needed to do at the best price I could.
Same thing for the welder. If it's not just absolute crap on the inside (And some are), it becomes easily questionable for a hobbyest to be asked to spend $3000-5000 for what some of the newer generation imports will cover by themself for $500-1300.

We'd all rather have one of the "big 4". But alot of people need a heavy does of reality... Not everyone plans on lugging their welders around, using them on an even remotely routine basis, or ever have the idea in mind that they could use their time & equipment to pay its self back.
Why would someone under said circumstances buy a few thousand bucks worth of equipment to make afew farm repairs? Build trailer. Build a car exhaust system. It makes no since.








Craftsman = quality would only be something older people would know. It's been decades since their stuff was actually quality. Their old stuff was more akin to today's Snap-on (etc) level tools. I'm younger. Craftsman = complete crap to me because it's been that way aslong as I have known it. Now they're mostly cheap entry level junk just like everyone else you find in a store. Their hand-tools are no different than Kobalt, Stanley, etc. Chinese made & they tear up in a "professional" setting. Then you get into the big part of guess what? Those are all uncomplicated Chinese tools. So why not just save the money & go straight to Harbor Freight (provided it's not motorized) & buy two LoL!

[Tex]

Cheap Stuff

I knew an aircraft mechanic who thought Craftsman tools were way to pricey and swore by Wal Mart tools. I'm the opposite but maybe I just have less money as a result. I could always drive to work in a Hyundai and save a lot of money but I'd rather be dead. You ever go to work and see your buddies and say "Hey man! Check out my new Hyundai!" Is cheaper better? Maybe, but this forum probably won't recommend it.

[harcosparky]

All the components, regardless of who builds them, come from India, Thiland, or China. Period. What's it gunna do. Unsoldier itself?


You do get exactly what you pay for.
The big question is what do you need to do?

Unsolder itself? Well that COULD happen. I have seen soldered components come undone. A compter that failed miserably " Coleco ADAM " comes to mind.

As for differences in components. well after working for a few years as a Component Test Engineer forWestinghouse Defense and JHU/APL, I can tell you they are not " all the same ". Value variation tolerance levels can differ between component manufacturers, not to mention equipment makers ( i.e. Miller, Lincoln, Chinese etc. ) can spec different tolerance levels for components. A 2% resistors costs more than a 5,10, or 20% resistor. In the end it all adds up.

You are right, you get what you pay for ... what do you need to do?

I may not use my equipment daily, so it can sit idle for long periods of time. What I need is some level of confidence that t will work when I want it to and if it does not, that I have some reliable customer support mechanism available.

[Toysrme]

I have the dual voltage version coming here Thursday (CT416D).
I put myself through school building alot of very custom car parts.
Put a pointometer in a set of junk game pedals, $10 get's you a remote pedal for one.
If it works through one project, it pays for itself outirght.
AFA consumeables. They use the exact asme consumeables everything else uses. Having played with afew others & known several people with the varrying Chinese tig/plasma units. Quality varries...
I'll open the case & post some pics when I get it.


For a jobsite. Buy something else. For the house. Why would I in particular want to spend $1,400 for a Maxstar® 150 STH, and Spectrum® 375 Base Model $ 1,395.00. $689 bought me the ability to do the same thing. The compressor I have, but add $300 for a regulator/dryer and a compressor.
I tig T304 schedule-10, and cut 3/8" mild at home. I don't need $3,000 in equipment to accomplish that.

You'll have to check the other forums to see how the things work. One of the bigger dealers is on hobart's forum.


Never buy a Chinese gmaw. They have moving parts. As far as a plasma / tig. Once you get passed the few that are literally held together with bailing wire. Electronics are electronics. Capacitors, wire soldier, the inverters... I don't care who assembles it. All the components, regardless of who builds them, come from India, Thiland, or China. Period. What's it gunna do. Unsoldier itself?


You do get exactly what you pay for.
The big question is what do you need to do?

[Tex]

Ditto....watch out for scams also on ebay. If you see a welder for an unbelieveably low price, the sellers info might have been stolen and you will send money to someone who has no intentions of sending you anything. One last thing. Look at the specs, most of the time you're just getting a lot less than it sounds like. Keep looking, though! You just might find that desperate seller!

[triggerman]

More info

If you look closely, you have to go back to those guys for all of your consumables. You can't just run down to the LWS and get them. Also, if it breaks there is no fixing it. Throw it away and go buy another one. They all tout warranties. But (a very big but) what do you have to do? send it back to China and wait for a replacement? Send it back to China and HOPE for a replacement? Who knows? There are lots of deals out there. Just go find one on a reliable piece of equipment that is backed up by a reliable company.

[harcosparky]

i agree you pay for what u get. even though those units might work good for a hobby welder i wouldnt pack it up in my truck and head to a job.

Hey, I resemble that remark.
I'm a hobby weldor and new one at that.
Would I own one of those units?
NOT A SHOT
I'd rather pay more and get more ... SUPPORT ... that is.

Miller earned my business the hard way ... with Support BEFORE I even owned a welder.

[arc]

i agree you pay for what u get. even though those units might work good for a hobby welder i wouldnt pack it up in my truck and head to a job.

[shade tree welder]

Cheap Junk

STICK WITH THE BLUE, FOR $1100 YOU CAN ALMOST HAVE A NAME BRAND MACHINE THAT WILL STAND BEHIND THE MACHINE,I AGREE WITH SSS, QUALITY OR JUNK?

[SkidSteerSteve]

Here's my simple take on it.....you get what you pay for. The price of a product is based on two things. 1) the quality of the product and 2) the quality of the company. If you want a cheaper price, which one (or both) do you want to cut? They're pretty now, but what will be left in 1000hrs (or less)?? Probably just a boat anchor. SSS