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Antique Back Hoe Repair

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  • #16
    The Maverick carb is probably superior to the original carb made by Mizerablesumbych that came with that tractor.

    My Go-For dirt saw is mounted on a 52 Jeep and either the saw or the blade will lift that end of the machine.

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    • #17
      Funny how all those old fords look the same....I really do like those old tractors. But google searches ain’t getting your machine fixed here. I like that little backhoe and man I could sure use it for a day or two! It’s not a tremendously heavy duty machine there, so why not just repair what’s there and dig away? Seems like you had the idea to cut out the old pipes and weld in some new ones. Pretty solid plan, I think you should do that. I like old iron and I think it’s cool as **** that you’re going to resurrect that little back hoe.

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      • #18
        2N, along with 8N and 9N did a lot to keep America fed back in their day. Neighbor had an 8 that was a firebreather compared to his Furgeson. 8N could pull a 2 bottom plow near twice as fast as the Fergie. Took Floyd 2 full days to plow his acreage for a new crop of cabbage.
        Floyd's in the ground now, and the land is leased. Watched the IH middlebender pulling 9 bottoms in that same field a few years back. Took that machine 1 hour and 45 minutes to plow the same average. Probably sipped less fuel doing it too. Only had 9 bottoms in the ground cause 68 acres ain't enough to drop all 15. Floyd's 8N sat in the barn watching, and didn't look at all like it wanted the job back.

        Middle bender is nice but Augie tells me it's useless on less than 5 acres. Middle bender probably won't last as long as the 8N, and Augie's son won't keep it in the barn looking over the field it worked for years.

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        • #19
          Going back 40 years the first 25 it was used to build septic systems and the last 15 the owner used it to do his water lines and tinker. From what I read the Industrial/Truck engine this tractor has came with a Holley. From my understanding the Funk Aircraft adapter kits had a fuel pump, if the customer bought the complete. Seeing how this is a cast iron oil pan with the govenor and Industrial engine but missing a fuel pump I am assuming it was converted from a gasoline 4 cylinder to a new propane fed
          Industrial 226. When converted back to gasoline they owner gravity fed it as most every tractor is done. Pictured is how I am going to repair it and will add an inch of length to it.
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          • #20
            If that's a Funk V-8 conversion we got a whole lot of extra horses under the hood to deal with.

            From what I've read Henry wasn't too happy with Funk initially, to the degree he built a couple V-8 tractors in house to see if the V-8 was going to destroy the gears. When testing showed the gears held up, Henry was happy.

            I've only been close to one Funk, it was on display, so I don't have direct knowledge what it could do.

            Looking at the bend, and factoring in extra power, I'd guess the dipper got bent early on by a man who was used to running a cable machine and slamming the bucket to get a hole going.

            Looking at your proposed repair, I'd go to a full diamond rather than the triangles on each side, and add baffles between the diamonds connected to the pipe and diamond along with either closing the top of the diamond or splining it to minimize possible deformation. I'd also go longer on both the diper pipe and cylinder mount. Material thickness would be no greater than the pipe wall.

            Probably be less work to just scrap the dipper and build new except for the cylinder mount.

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            • #21
              Would your repair be a solid diamond that wrapped around and looked something like this?

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              • #22
                Currently it is 4'5". An extra 7" dipper length would be nice.

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                • #23
                  Red lines - get beyond the weakened area and add strength. Make the diamond into a box with baffles for greatest strength. Just adding plates to the sides allows the plates to wow in operation and eventually crack.

                  Extending the dipper gets iffy. It's a reverse applied 1st class lever and you'll loose force unless you raise the cylinder mount farther than the length you add to the bottom. Breakout force may drop to far for the machine to be worth much. If your cylinder can deliver sufficient force to bend the dipper as it is, good chance the cylinder will be able to give you sufficient breakout. You also gotta factor in cylinder travel length. You change 1 dimension you pretty much change everything.

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                  • #24
                    I think if you’re going to go an extra 7”, you’ll end up redesigning the whole thing, which is cool too. Let what you plan to dig with it will be your guide. Considering its size, you might be pretty maxed out already. I’m not the heavy machinery geometry expert. If it was mine and I was doing general stuff around the farm, I’d be inclined to repair it just like it is and put it back to work. On the occasion you need to dig with something bigger you can always rent one.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                      Red lines - get beyond the weakened area and add strength. Make the diamond into a box with baffles for greatest strength. Just adding plates to the sides allows the plates to wow in operation and eventually crack.

                      Extending the dipper gets iffy. It's a reverse applied 1st class lever and you'll loose force unless you raise the cylinder mount farther than the length you add to the bottom. Breakout force may drop to far for the machine to be worth much. If your cylinder can deliver sufficient force to bend the dipper as it is, good chance the cylinder will be able to give you sufficient breakout. You also gotta factor in cylinder travel length. You change 1 dimension you pretty much change everything.
                      I don't see the red lines. The black lines I put were meant to be a solid wrap around piece.

                      As for the geometry of adding extra length was guessamated from the two newer 30 hp range back hoes I measured. 5' and 5' 4". I thought of how that would potentially rob power overcoming the extra length. The few pictures I found of these early 54B models they appear to be longer. This one has had a band saw looking cut through at the break. One of those deals you have to be there running the machine to notice. From what I have found on line the original buckets were 16" wide.

                      Does the diamond you suggested sort of look like what is on there now?

                      I appreciate the input.

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                      • #26
                        Can you see em now? Does your helmet need cleaning? Really, I'm conducting a covert eye test.

                        Give me dimensions.
                        Top cylinder pin to fulcrum pin and fulcrum pin to top edge of bucket with bucket sticking out straight from the dipper.

                        Old axiom, Build to purpose costs $1. Rebuild to hopefully keep it working costs $3. Rebuild after 1 & 2 have failed costs $15.

                        If possible, shoot me a pic of the dipper full length, I can scale it from there.

                        Saw cut could have been an attempt to straighten or who knows. If you could shoot an Xray of that fulcrum mess you'd probably crap.

                        How good/bad are the pins & bushings?
                        With the dipper fully in is there more piston extension travel available from the cylinder?


                        You said you want to play inrock with the machine, that's close to maximum stress. You also need more breakout inrock than you need in sand. Adding length to the dipper between bucket & fulcrum reduces breakout big time. Not exactly playing Chinee Lestaulant here. Contrary to AlGores thinking the Laws of Physics can't be changed by man.

                        Complementary picture of a 9N included at no additional cost. 9N was special, the designers didn't think it needed brakes, just drop the plow to stop the tractor.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                          Can you see em now? Does your helmet need cleaning? Really, I'm conducting a covert eye test.

                          Give me dimensions.
                          Top cylinder pin to fulcrum pin and fulcrum pin to top edge of bucket with bucket sticking out straight from the dipper.

                          Old axiom, Build to purpose costs $1. Rebuild to hopefully keep it working costs $3. Rebuild after 1 & 2 have failed costs $15.

                          If possible, shoot me a pic of the dipper full length, I can scale it from there.

                          Saw cut could have been an attempt to straighten or who knows. If you could shoot an Xray of that fulcrum mess you'd probably crap.

                          How good/bad are the pins & bushings?
                          With the dipper fully in is there more piston extension travel available from the cylinder?


                          You said you want to play inrock with the machine, that's close to maximum stress. You also need more breakout inrock than you need in sand. Adding length to the dipper between bucket & fulcrum reduces breakout big time. Not exactly playing Chinee Lestaulant here. Contrary to AlGores thinking the Laws of Physics can't be changed by man.

                          Complementary picture of a 9N included at no additional cost. 9N was special, the designers didn't think it needed brakes, just drop the plow to stop the tractor.
                          Now I can see. I just figured out the photo viewing part of this site. I have been selecting large or actual size and mine are not visible in this mode on my cell phone. Here are some pictures I already have. I will take better ones if needed.
                          Thanks

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                          • #28
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                            • #29
                              OK, we got us a whole new game.
                              Lets begin with the good part. The ratio on the dipper is about 2/1 ignoring the bucket. If the cylinder applys 2000 pounds of force at the pin, there are 1000 pounds of available force at the bucket connection. Those numbers are rock solid aproximate and carved in stone.
                              IF you extend the dipper 6" the ratio changes and you get 45±% of the input force at the end of the dipper, or 900 pounds.

                              More good news~ the dipwad who glued that mess together made it real easy for you to experiment with lengthening the dipper, because even though he beveled the pipe he sure didn't weld it! You can slide that puppy open tack in place and experiment with the geometry. You probably won't be able to dig play sand with it, but you can see range of motion.

                              The first picture tells 90% of the story the other 10 being why the clown did what he did. He must have "welded" it with a 110 volt machine.
                              The metal deposits combined with the improperly sized plug GUARANTEE failure! The can't see it from my place quality of the job combined with the metal troweling purporting to be weld also says the dipper itself may not be as bent as it looks in some pictures.

                              Pic 1 looks like there is 1/8 to 1/4 of empty between dipper ID and plug OD. Grab a pipe wrench and with the diper opened up like it is in Pic 1 and see if the plug rotates or is stuck to the upper component. If a wrench don't tell the story, a 4# hammer should.

                              Second test, can the dipper be straight or close to straight with minimal work. I have a hunch it can be at least close.

                              Once that is established, you can move ahead. I hope you have a good grinder and are competent at removing caulk with a torch.

                              More GOOD news, the dipper comes off with just 3 pins. Better news for the shop doing the work, that $5 job just became $500.

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                              • #30
                                Cylinder pin to fulcrum pin center to center is 23 1/2". Fulcrum pin to bucket pin center to center is 29 1/2". Cylinders are 3 3/16" OD with a 42" long cavity (weld bead above pin to wiper packing). My system uses a 1500 psi relief valve.

                                Doing the math on an actual picture in my owners manual I measure 45 mm and 67mm. That makes the new arm a 33% greater length vs my actual 20%. Following that same path the 10 mm (with picture straightened) I get on the actual picture translates to about 5.25" fulcrum pin to center if arm. With this ratio of 1/2" wall at 1500 psi it should hold up fine. What do you think?

                                I would patch it quick if my truck, trailer and welder weren't 600 miles away.

                                Thanks

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