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  • Antique Back Hoe Repair

    Hello,
    I am going to repair my 1948-52 back hoe in it's original form but upgrading from the original 3/8" to 1/2" wall. The arm pivot will be a little different than the patch work. I plan on reusing the ends. Ideal to lay out another pipe and bang out all new pieces. I may get a shop to do it but as for now I plan on fixing it when I get it home. The pipe is not that bad, I can get it for $245 shipped from Ohio. I would be open to a guesstimate if one of you would take a stab at it. The tractor is in Roswell, New Mexico. My home is in Waco, Texas. Somewhere in between?

    Question is how would you go about cutting off the ends and welding them to the new pipe? Is there any concern of hardening to the point of making them brittle?

    Clear as mud,
    Chris

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  • #2
    That one is in good shape, why you want to go messin with it. Somebody must have invented a detector for them cause that is about #5 I've seen show up in the last year, after years of not being able to find one. Date it around 55.

    Dipper seems to be a bit wowed indicating somebody figured out how to turn the juice pressure up on the 8N. New hoses??? were the steel lines inspected? Hydrojuice spitting out of one under pressure can hurt you bad.

    There were 2 designs, one inserted stubs of the yolks into the tube an inch or so (orso being dependent on who made them) and the other just butted the yolk onto the end of the pipe.
    Best way to find out what you have is to drill a few holes beginning a couple inches back from the end of the pipe. You'll either find pipe wall about ¼" thick or solid, but also be aware some of the booms and dippers were made from thick wall similar to drill stem.

    Once you figure out what you have, you can either carve the weld out with a cutting wheel or blow it out with an O/A torch.

    Be VERY aware, torching on a closed structure like the dipper can cause a steam explosion from trapped water. Drill it first!

    Comment


    • #3
      It is a Sherman 54B according to the owners parts manual no newer than 52. The ends of the pipe are open but thanks for the drilling advice. I can see how easily steam could happen. Another good point on the pipes. No leaks anywhere just one has had a solid wack on it before the yellow paint came along. I have had some pretty nasty steam burns and seen hydraulic leak injuries in the safety videos. I figured on OA cutting the yoke loose about an inch away the cutting the pieces off with a wheel. Moving quickly you think that is far enough away from the yoke? I have never done any high tension work like this on a fulcrum. I know what my other stuff looks like but likely not more than 2,000 lbs of force.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Franz© View Post
        That one is in good shape, why you want to go messin with it. Somebody must have invented a detector for them cause that is about #5 I've seen show up in the last year, after years of not being able to find one. Date it around 55.

        Dipper seems to be a bit wowed indicating somebody figured out how to turn the juice pressure up on the 8N. New hoses??? were the steel lines inspected? Hydrojuice spitting out of one under pressure can hurt you bad.

        There were 2 designs, one inserted stubs of the yolks into the tube an inch or so (orso being dependent on who made them) and the other just butted the yolk onto the end of the pipe.
        Best way to find out what you have is to drill a few holes beginning a couple inches back from the end of the pipe. You'll either find pipe wall about ¼" thick or solid, but also be aware some of the booms and dippers were made from thick wall similar to drill stem.

        Once you figure out what you have, you can either carve the weld out with a cutting wheel or blow it out with an O/A torch.

        Be VERY aware, torching on a closed structure like the dipper can cause a steam explosion from trapped water. Drill it first!
        What do you call the pivot just above the break? How does that measurement look? All of it in that area is patch work.

        Comment


        • #5
          You ain't going to hurt that steel with heat. It was crap probably government surplus water pipe to begin with.

          Since it's open you can measure the thickness of the wall without drilling.
          That dipper is probably no more than Sch 40 pipe, that could have been easily trussed to prevent the bend, but that would have cut the loaded bucket capacity.

          I still ? the 52 production date, that's at the back of the Korean Police Action period and hydraulics simply weren't common then.

          The one in the pic is a early 60s machine hanging on the back of a supposed NAA Jubilee tractor. Geometry is a little better, and so is boom and diper construction.

          Without outriggers these devices busted up many rear ends.

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          • #6
            Already did, it is 3/8" upgrading to 1/2". From what I understand it's predecessor did not have a hydraulic bucket. I would wager that your back hoe is over engineered and stronger per psi of working pressure than newer equipment of the same class.

            Mine has the large U bolts securing it to the axle tubes. Seems like something a little more rigid would have been better. Like a half frame or stout brackets that bolted to points on the tractor. Have you reinforced yours? If so I would like to see what you did. This unit has a 5 spool valve. The out riggers are on one lever and sea saw when it leaks down. They do not power up but rely on the three point to raise them up. I don't mind the gear shifting and no power steering. The lack of a live PTO makes plowing driveways interesting.
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            • #7
              Chris, you gotta understand when that machine was made its gratest selling pint was Beats He!! out of a Texas Teaspoon and a pick. Bucket curl did NOT exist on cable track hoes of the time, bucket was solidly welded to the end of the dipper and the bucket left the factory with the machine. Downforce on cable machines was called gravity. I learned on a 3/4 yard cable machine with a 6 cylinder Buda gasoline engine, only hydraulic component on that machine was me pissin when it took off sliding down an ice covered slope.

              Your machine was made by what is known as a shortline implement manufacturer. By 55-6 they were selling a similar machine to bolt to the back end of Willis Jeeps on a subframe.

              Yours is fortunately weak, due largely to pump pressure available and cylinders available at the time it was made. Bear in mind Hydraulic hoses of the 50s were cotton cord hose, barely more pressure tolerant than a heavy duty air hose, and not really resistant to hot oil.
              The people designing and building those machines never thought about forces translated to the machine itself.
              Gas company here built a bunch of Massey Furgeson hoes onto the back of 3/4 ton Chevys in the 60s trying to create a machine that traveled quick from job to job opening holes for gas work to eliminate 10 man crews operating from wagons. By the 80s they had upgraded to 60 series Chevy trucks with reenforced frames and were still breaking frames.

              Your boom & dipper cylinders look like they have packed rod seals rather than seals. That will be another thing you need to learn.
              Possibly most important to preservation and minimizing breaking of parts is proper pin fit. Slop in pins plays he11 with a machine.

              Also keep an eye on the bell housing bolts. I'd be a little hesitant to say a subframe on the 8N is a good idea considering the structure of the 8N itself.

              I don't and won't own a hoe myself for a few reasons. 1st being I can call 2 neighbors and have current machines in my yard in a couple hours, and second being the number of new friends you get as word gets around you own a hoe. The one I posted the pic of is for sale locally for $2300, supposedly running and operational.

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              • #8
                Actually I was impressed how stout it was. Once I cleaned the suction screen it dug like the last mini excavator I rented. I didn't expect that when I bought it. We will see just how stout/weak this thing is when I get it back home and dig in the rock.

                Yes all the pins have some slop. That is one of the other things I need to go through. Packing is all I know. If a sealed cylinder is out there I don't remember it. I have not worked in a dedicated hydraulic shop since 1998. Not many cylinder rebuilds since then.

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                • #9
                  Nice fix. I can remember when every tom, **** and harry had a tractor mounted hoe. Then the mid 80's came and the mini excavators came out along with the bigger ones. Now the tractor ones are hardly seen anymore...Bob
                  Bob Wright

                  Spool Gun conversion. How To Do It. Below.
                  http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...php?albumid=48

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Now that it has been established how common and weak some thought these were, do you have any measurements to share? It looks like the pivot could stand another inch in length. Length of the crowd?
                    Thanks

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                    • #11
                      Chris you need to factor in pretty much all of those hoes were designed to a universal market with the thinking being the operator in the seat would adjust his technique to digging conditions.
                      50 years later we have solid evidence most operators never got beyond rev the engine and beat the snot out of the stick.

                      A machine working sand can reach farther and have more pull than a machine working rock without boom damage. A machine in rock is better with shorter arms.

                      That said, were I you I'd model the job and add a couple fishing scales. Sticks and scales will tell you a lot, and do so cheaper than welding up iron.

                      Also consider the dipper would probably bent a lot less if it had a spine to begin with.

                      What I see in the pictures is an overzealous operator bending the top half of the dipper by running the machine harder than it was designed to run.

                      Comment


                      • #12
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ID:	604246 Anyone else recognize the Stromberg 1 barrel and little velocity stack? ...Bob
                        Bob Wright

                        Spool Gun conversion. How To Do It. Below.
                        http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...php?albumid=48

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          That's the funnel you either pour gas in to get it running or hold a UNLIT propane torch over Bob.

                          Check the downforce on the dozer blade. Very similar to the blade on a Go-For Digger.

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                          • #14
                            If a Go-For-Digger can lift the tractor off the ground or a pickup trucks rear wheels off the ground then yes it is the same. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you have worked on too many things to remember much about these tractors or the older back hoe.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by aametalmaster View Post
                              [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-attachmentid":604246**[/ATTACH] Anyone else recognize the Stromberg 1 barrel and little velocity stack? ...Bob
                              I thought it was a Stromburg at first also. It is a Carter off of a 200 ci Maverick. I wonder if this style of carburetor was fashioned after a Stromburg design.? The built in velocity stack is a good idea. I picked up some fuel mileage when I stacked my trucks carb with 2 1/2"+ of spacers.

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