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  • Irish Welder
    started a topic MIG Questions

    MIG Questions

    I am taking my second class in GMAW/MIG at a local junior college. Up until now, I’ve been working, for the most part, with sheet metal. This week I started with ½” plate (each piece is approximately 8” x 8”), and I’m having difficulty making the second and third passes.

    Keep the following in mind: I’m using a Miller CP-302 welding machine, so power is not an issue. The voltage and wire speed are appropriate: the arc is stable, there’s litter spatter, and it sounds like “bacon frying.” I’m using CO2 as the shielding gas.

    The ½” plate is prepared with a Victor oxyacetylene cutting machine with a 30-degree bevel on each piece. The bevel is finished lightly with a hand grinder; a root face of approximately 3/32” is placed on each piece. The two pieces are tack welded at the back. I’m welding in the vertical position, moving up.

    I’m doing ok making the root pass; the penetration is not what I’d like, but I think that will improve with practice. As my instructor suggests, I make the root pass with a small “u” shape and that seems to work well. As stated above, my difficulty is with the following passes.

    I’d like to know the following:

    1. What pattern do you recommend for the second and third passes? (My instructor recommends what I think of as a ladder-type pattern, pausing slightly at the sides.)

    2. Given the size of the 1/2” plates and the other details provided above, what is the appropriate root opening I should maintain after tack welding the two pieces.

    Thank you for your time.

  • diamondback
    replied
    Responsibility

    OK I think we should open a line of discussion here to consider what weldone and black wolf have said. I don't disagree with them that a manufacturer who would act responsibly would provide some means for the welder to educate themselves as to the proper use of the machine. I hope everyone on the forum has taken the opportunity to familiarize themselves with what is available especially on this site.

    I would also like to take a step or two forward and say that the welder whether new to welding or 30 years in has a responsibility also to be current on the process, technology and techniques that he or she uses. Not everything out there, a dynasty owner doesn't need to know how an Auto axcess works. But for what they do they are responsible for.

    I would also submit that we as welders in an industry are somewhat responsible for those around us who use welding also. We don't come out on sites like this to show off due to what we know. Rather we come out here to learn a little and help others with the similar problems we have faced, otherwise there would be a ton of questions and no answers. We also spend time working with the new guys at work to help them get better. Some even quit high paying jobs so they can teach. I hope someday to do the same when I can. So I will ask the question of how many of us spend any time at all helping the teachers? Do we go into high schools to help them learn, or to the tech schools? How many of us saw people at night school in welding that could use some help. The opportunities are everywhere for someone to make a difference.

    The shortages of welders that we hear about are real, and it's getting worse. This shortage leads to people getting into welding that probably have little to no experience. When we see them post out here we accept them and answer their questions. Are we willing to help them in the "real world". There are even companies importing welders from other countries for months at a time to do welding work.

    Waiting for AWS or the welder manufacturers to solve the problems isn't going to get it done. It takes more than that, it is going to take us all. Welding still has an image of being hard, hot and dirty and so it is with some places still and there will always be those cases but as you know just as well, welding is changing but it will still take skilled professionals to carry it into the future, and I think the manufacturers are leading the way.

    Leave a comment:


  • diamondback
    replied
    Arizona

    Originally posted by SavageSunJeep View Post
    Thanks for the response.

    I see you are a "diamondback" just wonder if you are located out here in AZ?
    I don't live in Arizona but I am from the valley of the sun. Right now we live in Wisconsin.

    My reference to the diamondback is more pointed at the Miller tig torch.

    Thanks for asking GO SUNS!

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Wolf
    replied
    Originally posted by SavageSunJeep
    Just got my Hypertherm Plasma cutter yesterday and it came with a DVD showing you how to use, work with and safety measures...
    Don,

    That sounds really good. I have used the Hypertherm 800,900,1000, & 1250 and really enjoy the way they work. I especially like the safety trigger. Good Luck & enjoy your new purchase.

    Diamondback, Thanks for the response.

    Weldone, Thanks for the support.

    Later,

    Leave a comment:


  • weldone
    replied
    [QUOTE=Black Wolf;21705]I agree 100% with both you guys. My biggest issue with the weekend welder is, and always will be, that the individual does not receive the proper training to do a proper job.

    I welcome anyone to pick up a welding machine & try, it is a wonderful feeling to be able to take an idea from your head, and have the skills to create it with your hands.

    Notice I said "skills".... this means time & training. For the amateur that does not wish to enter the trade, I suggest evening classes at a Vocational or Technical School. At the very least, familiarize yourself with and experienced tradesman who can "Mentor" you and guide you in the correct precedures as you learn.

    This is where the manufacturers really drop the ball. Selling welding equipment at Home Depot,Wal-Mart, Canadian Tire, Harbour Freight, Princess Auto, etc etc gets the welders into the hands of the end user, but not instructing how to use the machines correctly.

    I personally, would like to see the manufacturers take some responsibility for this and possibly address it in a couple of different manners:

    1) Include a comprehensive, DVD based tutorial showing correct maintenance & set up procedures, common user problems, and basic welding procedures.

    2) Sponsor basic welding courses at the LWS that carry their products. This both ensures the end user is using the equipment correctly, and also builds up a repore between the end user and the LWS for future upgrades???

    Either of the above suggestions are a Win/Win in my book.

    Everyone that wants to weld, should be able to access the equipment and be able to weld. We as an industry, have to work harder to get the end user the correct information, so that they can follow correct procedures and make SAFE welds.

    I'm sure that there will be arguements over liability on the manufacturers part, but manufacturing, marketing, and selling low end units to entry level end users WITHOUT giving them any form of instruction, is just irresponsible, not to mention Dangerous.

    My rant is now over.

    Miller, the ball is in your court.....Time to step up to the plate & take a swing.

    Hey Batter, Batter,.......

    Later,


    AMEN i FOR ONE TOTALLY AGREE WITH ALL THATS BE SAID

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Wolf View Post

    Miller, the ball is in your court.....Time to step up to the plate & take a swing.

    Hey Batter, Batter,.......

    Later,
    Jason
    Jason,
    Just got my Hypertherm Plasma cutter yesterday and it came with a DVD showing you how to use, work with and safety measures...

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by diamondback View Post

    As the need is identified realistically then the need is met, Miller started with one roadshow and now has two and is working hard to provide more exposure to this type of experience.
    Thanks for the response.

    I see you are a "diamondback" just wonder if you are located out here in AZ?

    Leave a comment:


  • diamondback
    replied
    Irish Welder

    Jim,
    I am glad to see you feel like you have improved. I am sorry about the direction of the thread as it went away from your question. I think you can see there are many points of view in welding and as you incorporate some of each you will find the right way for you to weld.

    Happy Holidays to you

    Leave a comment:


  • diamondback
    replied
    Stepping up

    Yes I admit to being a Miller Employee but please remember that my posts here are my opinion. They are not the opinion of Miller Electric or it's parent company Illinois Tool Works. Along with that I have been with Miller for less than a year now after being in the manufacturing industry for several years and attending college. All of that information is readily available on line. My decision to come work at Miller was heavily influenced by their dedication to the welder.

    I must take issue that manufacturers such as Miller haven't reached out to welders to help increase their ability or productivity. If you will look to the top of the screen at resources there are videos, booklets, books, calculators all designed to help us all as welders. It is the very concept at Miller to help welding improve that draws so many people there. They are interested in helping the user of their products and not just sell a machine.

    You can look at any trade show from hot rod shows to farm implement shows and there are welder manufacturers there to help, train and demonstrate. Not just Miller but Lincoln and ESAB do it also.

    As the need is identified realistically then the need is met, Miller started with one roadshow and now has two and is working hard to provide more exposure to this type of experience. If you were at the weld show in Chicago you know what I mean, they were both there and quite impressive. Those 2 trucks maintain an abusive schedule through out the year to get out and show people how to use the equipment, then they let you try it. They can't however force you to participate. Just like with the resources button above, the information is there, these companies employ dozens of weld engineers to help when you are stuck. Miller has even started producing DVDs on how to use their machines and that's not cheap. It does go to show their dedication to helping. They don't care if you weld at night in your garage or on aerospace projects when your stuck your stuck and they do things like these discussion boards to help out.

    I will not claim to know everything about welding, I learn new stuff everyday especially on these forums. There are alot of people out there that have done alot more than me and know so much more. I do know somethings and can find answers to other questions, thats what I do.

    My posts here are intended to help where they can and provide maybe a different point of view. My intention is to be respectful always and become better at what I do. If I have or do in the future disrespect anyone I am sorry for it and hope to have it brought to my attention.

    Leave a comment:


  • Irish Welder
    replied
    Thank you

    Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I appreciate your input.

    To fill in one blank in my original posting, I am using .035 wire. The wire feeder (used with the Miller CP-302) is a Miller 22A (I'm almost sure); the wire feed speed is set at about 2 on the dial.

    And, finally, employing many of the tips found here, I did substantially better this weekend.

    Again, thank you all. And Happy Holidays!

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Wolf View Post
    I would suggest that you use it to find someone more experienced in welding than yourself that you trust to show you how to do things correctly and safely.

    Manufacturers should take responsibility for this shortcoming and improper use of their equipment by either supplying a DVD based tutorial for the end user, OR sponsor courses at the LWS that carry their products.

    Later,
    Jason
    That is why there are so many of us guys on these forums, to learn.

    Good idea, but I am sure there is some reason why they have not...

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Wolf
    replied
    Originally posted by SavageSunJeep
    I hear and agree with a lot of what you say.* BUT, you imply that because anyone can buy a welder then that is a bad thing...

    No Don,

    The average Shmoe watching OCC and Biker Buildoff that figures he can buy an entry level welder from Home Depot and start welding up a race car, or suspension for a "Low Rider" is a BAD THING...That is where the focus of my comments are. Informing all the TV & Cyber welding experts so no-one gets hurt.


    School:* I have looked at lots of welding courses.* Passed on all of them.* 1)* They want to teach me things I don't want to know or care about knowing.* 2)* At nearly 62 I just want to work with my MIG welder, not spend the next 4/5 months going to school to learn what...how to torch weld.What I want to know are the details, tricks of the trade as it applies to what I want to do, no more, no less.

    The purpose of teaching you to Oxy/Acetylene weld is to give you hand to eye co-ordination, and puddle control, and also to allow you to see & understand what is happening within the puddle. All core concepts to understanding Arc Welding whether it be stick welding, wire feed welding, or Tig welding. I am very sorry that learning what you are doing so you do not kill somebody is so annoying to you.

    I am a retired engineer who after doing software and computers for 30 years wanted to pick up a welder, a plasma cutter and other assorted tools that will find in my garage, that I use to play with my Jeep.

    That is a good goal Don, and I wish that for you too. I just wish that you learn from someone to do it correctly.

    Going to a welding school does NOT make you a good or a smart welder, a safe or wise welder.* It does mean you were exposed to the information (maybe) and whether or not you know it and practice it today is at best questionable and at worst not likely.

    I agree with you here. Every trade has it's share of low end workers that lack the drive & pride to do every job with due care and attention. Your experience is unfortunate and not uncommon, but to colour ALL Professional Welders with the same brush is not only unfair, it shows a high level of ignorance on your part.

    I use schooling as an indicator to tell me whether or not you have been exposed to the knowledge.* But I don't and never have "hired degrees".* I hire the man or woman based upon my gut feeling that they can do the job.
    Don, there is nothing wrong with your selection criteria. I would suggest that you use it to find someone more experienced in welding than yourself that you trust to show you how to do things correctly and safely.

    Re-directing back to the end of my previous post....Manufacturers should take responsibility for this shortcoming and improper use of their equipment by either supplying a DVD based tutorial for the end user, OR sponsor courses at the LWS that carry their products.

    Everyone pushes welding equipment, no one pushes information or safety.

    Later,
    Jason
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 12-09-2007, 08:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SavageSunJeep
    replied
    I hear and agree with a lot of what you say. BUT, you imply that because anyone can buy a welder then that is a bad thing...Somehow I miss the logic in your concept. Do any work around the house? So then are you a school trained_______________(fill in the blank). Matter of fact most of us on an everyday basis do things which many go to school to learn.

    Every work on a computer?

    Which came first, chicken or the egg. Welder or school for welding, computer repair or schools, auto mechs or schools.

    School: I have looked at lots of welding courses. Passed on all of them. 1) They want to teach me things I don't want to know or care about knowing. 2) At nearly 62 I just want to work with my MIG welder, not spend the next 4/5 months going to school to learn what...how to torch weld, how to stack gas bottles in a warehouse.

    What I want to know are the details, tricks of the trade as it applies to what I want to do, no more, no less.

    I am a retired engineer who after doing software and computers for 30 years wanted to pick up a welder, a plasma cutter and other assorted tools that will find in my garage, that I use to play with my Jeep.

    Safety...GIVE ME A FRIGGIN break. I paid a "professional, school trained welder $40 bucks to run a bead on a AC bracket on my car...a lot of money in 1978 and I took off and installed the part.

    I did not make it even a mile down the road when the weld broke and did several hundred dollars with of damage to my car. His claim was the "weld did not break". Yes he was right, it did not. However what I learned later on was no, it did not break, it did not STICK. He welded over the engine grease. I did not know from Adam back then, but I know now and he did not prep it in spite of me asking "don't cha need to clean off that grease? "No, the welding will just burn it off"

    Going to a welding school does NOT make you a good or a smart welder, a safe or wise welder. It does mean you were exposed to the information (maybe) and whether or not you know it and practice it today is at best questionable and at worst not likely.

    I hired a guy who was a grad of Harvard one time and that guy was as dumb as a mud fence. Had to let him go, he just lacked good sense. One of the few folks I ever had to get rid of due to a lack of ability to do the job and I had 175 + engineers working for me at one time.

    I use schooling as an indicator to tell me whether or not you have been exposed to the knowledge. But I don't and never have "hired degrees". I hire the man or woman based upon my gut feeling that they can do the job (I prefer NOT to hire computer science majors either), but that is just me.
    Last edited by SavageSunJeep; 12-09-2007, 07:00 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Noisy Nova
    replied
    If any manufacturer would do this, it would be Miller.

    Can you tell that I'm a fan?

    Do I get brownie points?

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Wolf
    replied
    Way Off Topic....Thread is now Hi-jacked.

    I agree 100% with both you guys. My biggest issue with the weekend welder is, and always will be, that the individual does not receive the proper training to do a proper job.

    I welcome anyone to pick up a welding machine & try, it is a wonderful feeling to be able to take an idea from your head, and have the skills to create it with your hands.

    Notice I said "skills".... this means time & training. For the amateur that does not wish to enter the trade, I suggest evening classes at a Vocational or Technical School. At the very least, familiarize yourself with and experienced tradesman who can "Mentor" you and guide you in the correct precedures as you learn.

    This is where the manufacturers really drop the ball. Selling welding equipment at Home Depot,Wal-Mart, Canadian Tire, Harbour Freight, Princess Auto, etc etc gets the welders into the hands of the end user, but not instructing how to use the machines correctly.

    I personally, would like to see the manufacturers take some responsibility for this and possibly address it in a couple of different manners:

    1) Include a comprehensive, DVD based tutorial showing correct maintenance & set up procedures, common user problems, and basic welding procedures.

    2) Sponsor basic welding courses at the LWS that carry their products. This both ensures the end user is using the equipment correctly, and also builds up a repore between the end user and the LWS for future upgrades???

    Either of the above suggestions are a Win/Win in my book.

    Everyone that wants to weld, should be able to access the equipment and be able to weld. We as an industry, have to work harder to get the end user the correct information, so that they can follow correct procedures and make SAFE welds.

    I'm sure that there will be arguements over liability on the manufacturers part, but manufacturing, marketing, and selling low end units to entry level end users WITHOUT giving them any form of instruction, is just irresponsible, not to mention Dangerous.

    My rant is now over.

    Miller, the ball is in your court.....Time to step up to the plate & take a swing.

    Hey Batter, Batter,.......

    Later,
    Jason
    Last edited by Black Wolf; 12-09-2007, 12:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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