eye opener

[ZTFab]

I agree with you 110% , I posted on there a few times and if you don`t have like a billon posts they hate you

I'm curious wireburner.....

What posts on WW have you made that weren't taken well?

I'm looking at all of them right now and don't see one.

- Paul

[Bart]

Wireburner/Jones Welding/Chris....

Did I get it all wrong????

If I am reading your last post correctly and you ARE 13 - You should be reading MORE and posting LESS. I've been welding more years than you've been alive - and I post less than you on here 'cause instead of being on here making everyone believe I am a welder, I do it for a living in real life.

I'll leave it at that.

If you want to discuss this any further, PM me - You've already done it once today.... I'm not hard to find.

As a father, if my boy was 13 years old, I’d much rather have him involved in this forum than some of the other garbage on the internet. I think its great that wireburner is enthusiastic about welding and eager to learn. If being involved with this forum keeps his interest peaked and helps him learn, then wireburner keep posting. As I understand it that anyone interested in welding can participate in this forum and there is no requirement that you must be a professional licensed welder. This is a very civil forum and see no reason for your flaming of wireburner and personal feel you owe him an apology.

You really live up to your name. Going after the young and weak of the herd.

[Black Wolf]

Yeah, I figured a few would view me in a negative manner because of my rather rough treatment of "Wireburner" And yes, in retrospect, I maybe could have used a more diplomatic approach to getting my point across, and not sound like I was "flaming him".......

BUT.....

In my own defense, if you want to be a part of this forum with all the rights and privileges as everyone else, you get treated the same as everyone else. I don't use "kid gloves" Never have, never will. If your not big enough to run with the big dogs (or in my case Wolves) stay on the porch.

We have entirely too many teenagers & new members on here that do not know sheep sh!t from shoe shine sticking their noses where they don't belong - giving out wrong or misleading advice to other newcomers and perpetuating a general ignorance. What we do is not a game. When we start getting into structural welding, pressure welding, and welding anything that will go on public highways (to name just a few) this is really serious stuff. If we make a mistake, people can get hurt, or worse.

Take the time to take a look at the picture that started this whole thread. That abomination was done by one of our 16 yr old members that insists he knows what he is doing. LOOK AT IT. Do you want to be in your car with your family and meet someone towing that piece of crap loaded to the pins on the highway??? I'm not affraid to say that I do not.

This forum is a incredible resource, and a wonderful tool if it is not abused. I'm all for young people taking an interest in welding and looking to forums like this to learn....But that potential can only be fully realized when the user takes the time to read and think about what has been posted, and either go out and try what has been suggested, or ask questions to further their understanding. Nothing is gained by reading someone elses advice on one thread and then giving it out as your own on another to sound more experienced than you are.

These are my opinions.

Judge me if you want to.... I'm just saying out loud what most of you are too scared to.

If you want some, Come get some. Send me a PM. We can discuss your problems with me off forum.

Black Wolf

[Black Wolf]

I am not upset with Chris for building the trailer. I am well aware that he did not build it and I know exactly who did. My comment to Chris was that he could slow down on his posting spree. He has much to learn to learn and will only be able to do that with reading and research. And no, I wasn't as nice as I could have been, I've already admitted that.

As for the rest of your post... I'm not going to acknowlege that immature garbage with a response.

We're trying to cut down on this sort of thing - insults going back and forth, so just out of curiosity, when I suggested everyone contact me via PM to discuss this stuff.... What part did YOU misunderstand. Did I stutter??? Did I type too fast???

If you want to keep this up, do it off-forum.

[M-Tech]

Eye Opener

I don't think this thread should go off line. Many valuable points have been made, each with some real merit. The thread seems to me to be one of those golden opportunities.

First, if we take that trailer by itself, leaving its fabricator out of the equation for the moment, we can legitimately critique it. Granted, we don't get close-ups of the welding itself, but just think of all of the points already made: material too weak for the job (why, why not?); tongue too short (why, why not?); stress resistance (no springs: why are they critical?); safety--and the implications for others--etc.

Next, the implication of youth vs. experience . . . certainly a field ripe for harvesting. In the auto industry the demand for young technicians is out-pacing the entrants by orders of magnitude. When I was young we were all "motorheads," able to strip and rebuild an engine, if not the whole car. Today, the young people around here put stick-on pin-striping on their car and consider it "pimped out." I believe the professional welding field suffers in the same way. I think the best cross-generational approach is by invitation: I invite you to hear what I have to say, to learn from my experience, and for you to challenge me to continue to learn. If we make it too confrontational we alienate each other. If you refuse the invitation, that's your choice.

Truth-telling . . . another critical point. We should never call an unsafe piece of garbage a masterpiece of construction. Tact and diplomacy may not be everyone's strong suite, and we need to accept that. Those of us who are good at it can help temper the input of those who aren't -- but not at the expense of truth.

Participation in discussion implies discussion, not gratuitous conclusions. Yes, there's been a bit of "bashing" of the person who made the trailer, and regrettably that might be unavoidable: that person made a claim of structural soundness based on the direction of their weld! If there's someone who can show me the inherent superiority of this weld direction over sound choice in design and materials, I'll personally admonish all of the "bashers." I think the intent there was to discredit some dangerously unsound information.

Joe

[dabar39]

Some of you have some valid points mentioned in your posts but let me explain something about this "trailer" that this poster was so proudly displaying. I did converse with him and so did several others in the matter of proper building of this said "trailer". Funny part is that I gave this person my advice and gave him step by step directions on the proper way to build a trailer quite a while ago and did not realize until earlier today that this is what was built with the knowledge and advice given him by myself and a number of other qualified people.

I had no idea of this persons age and do not feel that has any real bearing on the trailer that was displayed. I am all for encouraging and helping any one who wants to learn whether they are 13 or 60, he!l I learn something everyday myself. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in this case the poster was given a lot of good advice by a number of people who have many years of experience behind them and this was the best he could come up with. If he sat back and absorbed the knowledge that is available instead of making frivolous posts on everything else that does not pertain to him, maybe he would have learned to do it right.

As Blackwolf said earlier in this thread, what we do is no joke and should not be taken lightly, especially when the results can and will be life altering (or worse) events. I don't think I would be able to live with myself for not pointing this "trailer" out and this proud builder goes and kills or maims some innocent victims with his proud accomplishments. I wish I knew the exact location of this "trailer" so the proper authorities could be notified and take it off the streets. The only problem with that is there are so many more out there to take its place. Dave

[fun4now]

wile i agree 100% too many fools have access to welders. not every kid with a welder is a risk to the rest of us, you have to lern at some point and starting at 13 is great. given the proper soupervition he will one day be a great fabricator. problem is too many do see the TV shows think its simple go out grab a mig and make great looking crapy welds. those welds too often end up on the free ways with the rest of us.
too many people are also looking at post count as meaning some thing. i have over 6,000 posts on ask andy but am far from the best welder there. just the one with the most time to spend in here on the board. i do my best to pass on only good info that i know or have picked up from those i feel know what they are saying, but will alwasy admit to being a hobby guy playing in the shop.
i started TIG welding about 8 months ago i think but still have a great deal of TIG knolage to pass on. some of my own finding and some reprinted from others that do know better. i have picked up a lot here and do my best to share what i have lerned here.
miller at one point decided the member systen was not good and decided to do away with Sr. and Jr. member status and made us all user's, that did not go over too well. so we went back to the old system. but the status is realy only time on the board not time welding, thats why you are a Sr. member not a Sr. welder. too many get that confused.

[6gAws]

Here is the way I see it. (really long)

I am a member of the Hobart board a well. I have been lurking here for a short time and finally feel that I have something to add.

When I first saw this post, I took what was being said as just slamming the "Fabricator" of the "Trailer". As I read further I could see that the OP was trying to shed some light on a some very egregious [read sh!t] fabrication. I have come to see that the OP was really trying to help us understand that WELDING & FABRICATION are NOT a HOBBY. This is serious business. I too agree that to many folks have access to welding equipment w/ little or NO knowledge of how serious welding really is. As a matter of fact I have 7 yrs in the field, does this make me an expert,he!! no. Do I pretend to know it all, not purposely, have I given out bad advice yes , and I have also taken steps to correct that and re-posted or edited my post. As of late I a have also realized that some of the info I was taught was just plain wrong and should be forgotten and replaced with new and correct knowledge.

This brings me to my reason for posting this morning[its 2am here]. I feel that this and other boards are a good place to get answers to questions that inevitably arise during the learning process. But soliciting advise your are asking for someones personal experience and knowledge. If after READING the replies you find that it worked out well tell us if it did not go well tell us why and we can assist you further. Otherwise if you are not willing to head our advise then GO AWAY!! Don't waist our time and yours buy asking for and receiving good step-by-step instructions and then turn around and tell us to all piss off by NOT heading our advise. IF you do not feel that you have gotten good advise check it out elsewhere. Tell us what you found and the tell us why we are wrong and back it up with quality source citaitons. [a quality source is NOT joe the carpenters friend the part-time welder and Loam screener] You had better find a Certified Welding Instructor or Inspector.[good luck they will not put there Stamp on the line for no beans]

If in you quest you are having trouble finding other source might I suggest that you log onto the American Welding Societies website and look a the info they have posted there. Otherwise go to welding school and start from the bottom and work your way up and get a welding job. I am not interested in earning a Darwin Award because your dumba$$ didn't take the time to pay attention in welding school.

End Rant,

6g

[dabar39]

6gAws, Finally some one gets it. well said.

As Black Wolf mentioned earlier in his post

1. Welding and fabrication work is very serious business and should not be taken lightly. Especially when public safety is at risk.
2. There is an untold wealth of knowledge on these boards to utilize and
can be an invaluable tool if used the way it is intended to be used. It's one thing to post a lot if you have legitimate questions or information to give, it's another thing to post just to try and fit in.
3. Welding equipment should be affordable to anyone who wants to learn the proper processes involved in welding and more emphasis should be placed on education and training to use this equipment.


Now for my thoughts on this matter, I truly believe that anyone regardless of age should be able to learn this trade whether it be a hobby or a profession. But if you are a hobbyist keep it at that. Build yourself some nice non life threatening items and leave it at that.

I also believe that anyone who is going to build items such as trailers, pressure vessels, or any other item where public safety is at risk you should be required to be certified by a qualified inspector or instructor and the final product needs to be inspected as well to insure the public safety. Dave

[fun4now]

very well put.
the scary part is that when you build a home trailer no one looks at the design or welds on it before giving out a title and tag.. they only look at the lights and reflectors.
it would be great to see a book and DVD/CD/VHS on the process the welder dose given out with it. it seems that most of the LWS (at least in mine) they don't have much in the way of education material?? it would be good if they all had a learning section for new welders.
i will give credit to Mahany's welding supply in Rochester they offer a weekend coarse and some evening courses for beginners that give you a quick once over on all the hobby welding processes like plasma, MIG & TIG to help them get off on the right track. it would really help if all LWS offered some thing like that. i think the biggest problem comes from Home depot and places like that. they make welders to easily assessable and offer no information about them. the fools that work in that department will tell you it ok to build a 16' car carrier with a little clark or lincoln 100 AMP mig. thats just adding to the problem, they are just in it to make a $$ and offer no info to help keep welders in the proper hands or at least to the right size for the job.
too easy to get and too easy to make a bad weld the little MIG's are dangerous in the wrong hands.

[HMW]

I agree with most of what has been said in this post, except for the what was said about wireburner. he's a kid...so what. There is alot of good info on here and I always pick up stuff from all of you. However, I'm old enough to decide if I want to use your advice or not. I just take what anybody has to say, weed through it and decide if I think it would work or might try it. I also dont want to discourage a 13 yr old from reading, and writing here, I read this post and cant figure out what wireburner said wrong, maybe I should have read some of his others. But if they dont intterest me I dont pay any attention to them. Black wolf, you've had some great posts and I've taken some great info from them, so thanks. also there is nothing wrong with using a little tact when tellling someone something. I agree with not sugar coating things but being dowbn right ignorant is different.
Just my 2 cents worth, your certainly entitiled to yours. I'd rather spend more time asking questions and reading posts about welding then about the people who post here

[6gAws]

Here is the way I see it. (really long)

sorry This would have been a double post of previous comments.


6g

[SundownIII]

My observations (LONG):

Dabar and Black Wolf both share with me the belief that if something's worth doing, it's worth doing right. We three sometimes also share that "LACK OF TACT" character trait. I suspect that comes from prior experience in our given field. I personally come from an arena where bad advice/instruction, got people killed. When we see or read something that's not right, we have no reservations about stating just that. I personally do not feel that I have any obligation to make any poster "feel good" if his/her work does not justify it. I see posts on these boards of posters "showing off" what I consider to be less than stellar work (if they were working for me it would be redone). As long as it's truly a "hobby project" (machine carts, yard art, etc) I have no problem and generally just pass it up. When it goes beyond that (trailers, pressure vessels, safety issues, etc) I feel an obligation to comment--good or bad--with no holds barred.

Welding/fabrication is serious business and if not performed correctly, has the potential for disaster. There are basic, established standards for this industry which are available to all. It just requires a little basic study on one's part. A basic understanding of metalurgy, electricity, and mixed gas is essential. I'm not big on "regulation" but do feel that it may be time to look at whether we need some form of "basic certification" prior to buying a welder or getting a bottle filled. When I used to teach SCUBA diving, my students had to have a basic certification before they could get their bottles filled. I don't think that anyone would argue that welding has at least as much potential for disaster as SCUBA does. With that said, I wonder how many "hobby welders", who have an ox/ace setup in the garage, understand what the 1/7 rule means (just an example).

I have no problem helping any "new/learning" (we all are) welder, whether they be 7 or 70. I do have problems with posters who don't take the time to think about what they're trying to say and just begin posting with no thought to grammar, punctuation, or even context. That's just not fair to the other members who have to "interpret/translate" the posting. If you want to "text message" your buddy, that's fine, just don't do it on a message board.

If a poster asks a question, the answer to which is readily available to him (often his owner's manual), then he should be prepared for flak. Too often the boards are used to compensate for a posters laziness or unwillingness to do a little reading on their own.

Too many posters constantly post on subjects they obviously know nothing about. To give an example (no names) one poster commented four times about "how to weld an exhaust manifold". When I questioned him if he had ever welded an exhaust manifold, his reply was "NO, but I did just finish a lot of welding on my truck". Hardly qualified to provide guidance. Bottom line, if you don't have something meaningful to add--DON'T. Read the comments from those who do, and learn from it. As I've said many times before, "the Lord gave you one mouth and two ears and meant for them to be used in that proportion".

As has been said before, the board provides a wealth of information which would be difficult to find elsewhere. There is no substitute for real "hands on practical experience". We'd all be better off if we read more and posted less.

My .02 Off the Soapbox

[HMW]

Sundown III
Point well taken! But, I still dont see the need to blast someone for saying something. Correcting whats wrong is cool, I too have worked in a rough enviroment and for the last 12 yrs supervised some real but heads.
As far as someone using bad advice from here in a critical situation, If they depend on this site, to make the decision for them in how to repair something, they have no business working on it. Apparently it happens though. I take the advice and decide for myself. Its my name on the product. and my insurance

Just my 4 cents worth [I already gave 2 cents] and I too am off my soap box.
Lots of smart guys here and I enjoy it alot.

By the way, that aluma guard you mentioned, for polishing alum.[different post] I had forgot about. I think I've seen that before somewhere. I'll have to find some

[jjsjeff]

I do have problems with posters who don't take the time to think about what they're trying to say and just begin posting with no thought to grammar, punctuation, or even context. That's just not fair to the other members who have to "interpret/translate" the posting. If you want to "text message" your buddy, that's fine, just don't do it on a message board.

I almost posted a thread about the grammar and punctuation that I see on the Hobart and Miller forums. I really wish people would take the time to attempt to spell something correctly so that it can be read by someone else.

TIP: If you use the Firefox web browser instead of Internet Explorer it has a feature that catches misspelled words just like if you were typing a paper.