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  • flukecej
    replied
    neophyte,

    The sole reason the inspector is wanting you to use 12/3 is because the compressor has to be GROUNDED. Yes it will run on 12/2 but it is not up to code without being grounded. You can go down to Home Depot or Lowes and buy a cut length of 12/2 with ground or 12/3 cable and get the job done. You don't have to buy a whole roll of wire unless you like parting with your money.
    I'm am in the water well service business here in TX. I am constantly updating wiring on domestic wells to put that third wire or ground in place becuase the code says it has to be there. We used to use 12/2 UF cable from the disconnect or breaker panel to the control box. These days, the 12/2 has to be replaced with 12/2 with ground or 12/3 SDT (tray) cable to meet code requirements, even out in the country. In TX, the NEC applies everywhere, county and local codes can add to but not weeken the NEC requirements. Since 1992, I have had to run 4 wire subcable with all pumps set or add a ground wire to the existing 3 wire subcable in place because the motor manufacturer and NEC said it had to be done, even with the pump set on steel pipe. That ground wire is needed for a reason, its called safety.

    Leave a comment:


  • fun4now
    replied
    " What is cheaper? Doing it my way the first time ... OR .... doing it your way and having me tell you to rip it all out and rewire the buidling? "
    LOL hard to argue with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • harcosparky
    replied
    I once had an inspector tell me ....

    " What is cheaper? Doing it my way the first time ... OR .... doing it your way and having me tell you to rip it all out and rewire the buidling? "

    Leave a comment:


  • ctardi
    replied
    Originally posted by hankj View Post

    The NEC Art. 200.7 (C) 1 permits re-identification of the white wire as a current carrying conductor (just as Neophyte thinks it does) if the wire is contained in a common sheath with the black and bare (or green) wire. But, as mention somewhere in this thread, you'll need to meet the LOCAL code as well as the NEC. If you can't convince the AHJ that you're right, you'll have to do it their way in order to pass inspection! That's sparky life!

    Hank
    IIRC, and I can't quote a code reference here, in some areas you are only allowed to re-mark a wire if it is over a certain size. Here if it is smaller than 8awg, you can not re color code it, you must use the correct colored wire. If it is bigger than 8awg, you can re color code it with paint, a magic marker, or even tape, depending on the inspector.

    Leave a comment:


  • harcosparky
    replied
    Well I undersand clearly....

    I have a neutral coming out of the dryer - the WHITE wire.

    I have a Chassis Gnd coming out of the dryer - the Green -or- bare wire

    They go to the same place electrically and mechanically but do two different jobs!

    Makes sense to me!

    Leave a comment:


  • neophyte
    replied
    Originally posted by Sberry View Post
    Is it the panel that is the service to the garage?
    Right. It is the panel for the garage that comes off of the service entrance at the house. I also have a RV subpanel coming off of the garage box. I plan on pulling another line into the garage box when we get time. Your also correct about utilities to the garage. None permitted without the fourth wire. I'm catching on to this wiring thing .....thankfully the learning cure from this end no longer looks like a globe.

    Right now I am trying to get my insulation in so I can put drywall up while my son in-law is here for Christmas.

    It's not going to be a Bulldog kind of shop. But that's how life is when you move into town.

    BTW just looked at the PVC going form the house to the garage.... It is Schedule 40. That's not legal either is it??? I thought it had to be Schedule 80.

    Leave a comment:


  • hankj
    replied
    Originally posted by leeschaumberg View Post
    1 black wire - hot or 120 V
    1 white wire - negative which is circuit ground
    1 uninsulated or bare wire - building ground


    That's a classic example of why folks get into trouble with electrical wiring. The hot, or line, is always a color other than white, green, or in some oddball applications, orange. The white wire is always the grounded conductor, in that it is the return path for the unbalanced line-to-neutral loads that are 120V. It is not "negative" (this is AC), or "circuit ground".

    The equipment grounding conductor (not "building ground") is either bare or colored green. If everything is hunky-dory, this wire will never carry current. If a ground fault occurs in a piece of equipment or an appliance that is connected to an "equipment grounding conductor", the result is an instant trip of the breaker or a blown fuse.

    The NEC Art. 200.7 (C) 1 permits re-identification of the white wire as a current carrying conductor (just as Neophyte thinks it does) if the wire is contained in a common sheath with the black and bare (or green) wire. But, as mention somewhere in this thread, you'll need to meet the LOCAL code as well as the NEC. If you can't convince the AHJ that you're right, you'll have to do it their way in order to pass inspection! That's sparky life!

    Hank

    Leave a comment:


  • Tailshaft56
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Kraemer View Post
    An example of what the neutral wire does is a light bulb. For a light bulb to work you have to have what is called controlled resistance. In essence you are creating a short circuit between the hot & neutral causing the filament to glow, but it is not enough to cause the circuit breaker or fuse to trip.
    .

    The light bulb is not a true short circuit. While it will read a short with a meter as soon as the element heats up the resistance will go up. This is what prevents it from blowing fuses or tripping breakers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sberry
    replied
    Is it the panel that is the service to the garage? Some 3 wire feeds are legal but I dont think its a good idea, there are so many utilities, someone comes along and puts a phone line, cable TV or metal gas line in and no one realizes it throws the electric out of compliance.

    Leave a comment:


  • neophyte
    replied
    Originally posted by Sberry View Post
    Ido it the way we tell you, when you get to the day when you finally do understand the work you did will still be right.
    That is funny and I was not even going to bring up the issue about the 3-wire feed into the sub-panel at the garage that passed inspection ......installed by my locally licensed electrician BTW. ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Sberry
    replied
    So whats the word for the day???? short circuit interuption,,, ha,,, ground fault protection!

    Leave a comment:


  • Sberry
    replied
    We see this setup when old fuse boxes are used as subs, they were designed as service entrance equipment with internally bonded neutrals. You see people use them or leave them all kinds of "modified " circuits with those. I design a new service today, the old had a sub fed with 4 wire, both the white and the ground land on the same bar and the can wasnt bonded. The guy misses one bar, creates a lot of potential problems because he reasons that because both wires land on the same bar in one panel that they should in them all.
    Another handyman type told the owner we need some ground rods and a wire because the second panel didnt have that setup.

    Leave a comment:


  • calweld
    replied
    Originally posted by Sberry View Post
    do it the way we tell you, when you get to the day when you finally do understand the work you did will still be right.


    This should go on a list of famous quotes somewhere . . . I gotta remember this one, I could use it myself often in real life explaining things to people (with permission of course???)

    Leave a comment:


  • Sberry
    replied
    I got to agree with Bob and as Harko says in another part, "I dont understand". That I will agree with, not to be insulting but this is a particular area a lot of people want to re-invent because they "dont understand why". I get that every once in a while and I got to say, do it the way we tell you, when you get to the day when you finally do understand the work you did will still be right.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bob Kraemer
    replied
    Originally posted by harcosparky View Post
    " reidentifying " a wire with tape, marker or whatever won't make ot past a code inspector.

    Let's not rehash the GND/NEU thing here. In a single phase service both GND and NEUTRAL are the same thing, physically and electrically.

    Simply put he wants to use 12/2 and the inspector wants 12/3.

    He could use 12/2 but it wouldn't be up to LOCAL code.

    Keyword LOCAL as NEC is a guide. Local gov't can demand more.

    I would say if you were not being inspected 12/2 would work -IF- the bare gnd conductor is of the same wire gage.

    It makes no sense to me ... in my house a 240V Dryer has a 3 wire hookup, in a new house it is 4 wire. The new codes demand a Red / Black / White / Green(bare) wire. When in fact on single phase wiring the Green & Whites are tied together at the power company transformer and your house.

    Oddly when you read the NEC code they tell you ... " If you move a 3 wire appliance into a new installation you will have to have a 4 wire power cable installed "
    Don't mean to disagree with you & no offence intended but the neutral or grounded conductor are not the same thing as a ground wire or equipment ground. They preform 2 different functions. The neutral is a load carrying conductor that is why you have to count all neutrals when sizing conduit or for derating purposes. Yes they are tied together at the main panel & transformer that is why the neutral is also called a grounded conductor
    The reason you have to install a 4 wire cord on dryers equipped with a 3 wire cord in a new house is because the neutral is a load carrying conductor. You have to remove the bonding jumper on the center tap lug in the dryer attach the neutral there and install a lug or other attachment means to ground the dryer.
    An example of what the neutral wire does is a light bulb. For a light bulb to work you have to have what is called controlled resistance. In essence you are creating a short circuit between the hot & neutral causing the filament to glow, but it is not enough to cause the circuit breaker or fuse to trip.
    A ground wire will do the same thing, but since it doesn't have any insulation around the conductor to protect it & other conductors from the heat created, you cannot use the ground wire as a neutral conductor.
    The intent of the ground wire is to provided a direct path to ground in case of a short circuit.
    I am not an engineer but I hope I helped to clarify the difference.

    Leave a comment:

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