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  • Help For First Timer With Tig Inverter

    Hi To All...

    First off I'd like to say, that I think that this is a great place, and Thanks to Miller for providing it! I've been reading silently for a while... And now I thought If I may... Ask you all for some help...

    For some background I have been building cars since I was 16 years old when I assembled my first dragrace motor... I have roadraced motorcycles, and Had a Professional NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle Dragrace team... I was owner/crewchief... in 1986-1988 I was the first NHRA Motorcycle to win a Wally for Best Engineered honors... Something I'm very proud of.

    It pained me greatly that upon making a chassis change or Mod.. I had to source a welder to complete the work... I've been vowing to learn to TiG weld for 20 years... Now I have taken the plunge and bought a Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner! I love it... And have waxed it twice already! LOL!

    I decided that I would go for broke, so to speak right off the bat. When I do something, I strive for excellence, and I learned a long time ago from racing, that you don't achieve excellence without excellent equipment... And from all my research I believe that this unit is the best. Sunday March 26th I ran my first bead, and although not the most beautiful, it had good integrity, penetration, and was very strong... It was a satisfying moment... I'm trying to isolate a particular problem that I'm having, and hope you guys will be here for me... Thanks In Advance!

    Tony
    Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner
    Roadster BWE

  • #2
    Welcome to the forum. We are all waiting with wild anticipation as to what your problem may be. Care to elaborate?
    Dynasty 350DX
    Dynasty 200DX TigRunner
    MM 350P
    MM Passport Plus
    Spectrum 375 Extreme
    08' Trailblazer 302

    Comment


    • #3
      Hey Tony,welcome to the Miller forum! Lot's of info here.Good thing,I'm a newby with a 300DX too!
      That's very cool that you were involved with racing in the NHRA. This will be a good year for NHRA Pro Stock bike. With the bigger motors & finally allowing fuel injection the Suzuki folks will do well. I'm 1 1/2 hours from Fast by Gast.I visit as much as posible,I've spent heaps there too!
      I dream of being able to fab up my own frame & have the chips to run it.
      Which tungsen did you go with? I have yet to wax my 300! (I will though;o)

      Comment


      • #4
        Here's One

        Kevin,

        Thanks for the quick reply... Although I specifically bought an inverter because it was purported to be easier to learn on, I'm thinking that in one aspect that it might be making things more difficult for me...

        I think the problem is the inverters benefit of a 40% faster weld time... When you are learning to write for instance... To make a perfect letter "A" you draw it very slowly... And I find that I have to move so fast, and add filler so quickly that I can't concentrate on my penmanship! I'm setting the amperage at the bottom of the range, but still if I slow down I get a recessed weld that's sinking down through the bottom!

        I have been welding plain metal 1 1/2" wide in thicknesses from 1/16" - 1/8", and using a 1/16th Thoriated Tungsten with 1/16" filler rod... Although I have and plan to use 3/32 filler, & 3/32" Lathanated Tungsten.

        I have not used the Pulsar function that since alternately cools & heats the weld puddle I feel might help me, because I don't want to start out with a crutch...

        Any thoughts would be much appreciated...

        Thanks,

        Tony
        Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner
        Roadster BWE

        Comment


        • #5
          Tony,

          I'd love to have that machine!

          Are you using a remote? Foot pedal? Finger control? If not, you are missing out on the ability to control exactly what you describe the difficulty to be. If your puddle looks like it's about to drop out, ease up on the remote!

          Hank
          ...from the Gadget Garage
          Millermatic 210 w/3035, BWE
          Handler 210 w/DP3035
          TA185TSW
          Victor O/A "J" series, SuperRange

          Comment


          • #6
            I think I understand.

            I spend most of my day teaching people how to do what needs to be done with what they have. I start them out with hand tools. Saws, drills, files and that sort of thing. Not only does it teach them to think, who wants to recut anything by hand cause you measured it wrong, it teaches them the way to use a power tool to it's maximum potential. Once you understand why a saw cuts or a drill makes a hole you can't help but think of the right way to use it and other ways to use those tools. Could this be what is behind your reluctance to use the pulser feature? One of my many early jobs was working at a truck body installation company. The owner of the company told me that if I would learn to weld with O/A, I would end up to be a much better welder. Of course I wanted to run the big machines but he insisted I cut what I thought was every peice of steel used in that shop with a flame torch. I destroyed plenty of coat hangers trying to get two peices of steel welded to each other and by the time I was done I could weld and cut pretty good with a torch. I did'nt think much of it then. I sure did soon enough though. I moved onto stick welding and then Mig and I was thinking that all that flame time was a waste. Of course every now and then there was a thin peice or some other reason to O/A weld/cut or heat/bend something. Back then it was called Heli Arc and the guys who did it at this shop were always busy and made good money. I remember they were treated pretty good too. Most of you know what comes next. I sat down and in a few hours I was doing what my boss was counting on me doing. I think I understand why you would rather do without the pulser. But, when you get good enough without it, wait till you see what happens when you do use it. Some of the advise here is the real thing and worth reading. You can't blame it on your machine because you did buy the best. If you can't get an answer here then you did'nt ask the question.
            [B]Trail Blazer 302
            Suitcase X-TREME 12VS
            Syncrowave 180SD
            Coolmate 4
            Millermatic 175
            Millermatic 251
            HT Powermax 180
            Victor O/A
            DeWalt DW872 Chop Saw
            Lathe
            Milling Machine
            Bandsaw
            No matter how hard I try, I always hear about the other guy who can do it better, faster and cheaper. Sure would like to meet him someday but no one seems to be able to find him when I ask. [B]

            Comment


            • #7
              Fbf

              Originally posted by JayB
              Hey Tony,welcome to the Miller forum! Lot's of info here.Good thing,I'm a newby with a 300DX too!
              That's very cool that you were involved with racing in the NHRA. This will be a good year for NHRA Pro Stock bike. With the bigger motors & finally allowing fuel injection the Suzuki folks will do well. I'm 1 1/2 hours from Fast by Gast.I visit as much as posible,I've spent heaps there too!
              I dream of being able to fab up my own frame & have the chips to run it.
              Which tungsen did you go with? I have yet to wax my 300! (I will though;o)
              Jay,

              HI, thanks for the welcome! I remember Paul... He was the last man to run the 2 stroke H2... Then switched over to the 4 stroke... I believe he ran PS, and has some success...

              It's great to have someone here who knows about NHRA PSM... When I was in the top 10, George Bryce was just starting out... Riding his own bike..

              Be well Good sir! I hope with the help of all these fine folks we can go far with these great machines!

              Best, Tony
              Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner
              Roadster BWE

              Comment


              • #8
                Making Due

                Originally posted by acx780
                I think I understand why you would rather do without the pulser. But, when you get good enough without it, wait till you see what happens when you do use it. Some of the advise here is the real thing and worth reading. You can't blame it on your machine because you did buy the best. If you can't get an answer here then you did'nt ask the question.
                ACX,

                Yes you are right... I didn't want to go to the trouble of getting a lesser machine, and then having to sell it... But you are correct about my intentions... I know the pulser is supposed to also make the weld bead appearence better... So I'm staying away from it... If I can be great without it, then as you say, wait till I use it!

                Thanks,

                Tony
                Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner
                Roadster BWE

                Comment


                • #9
                  Pedal

                  Originally posted by hankj
                  Tony,

                  I'd love to have that machine!

                  Are you using a remote? Foot pedal? Finger control? If not, you are missing out on the ability to control exactly what you describe the difficulty to be. If your puddle looks like it's about to drop out, ease up on the remote!

                  Hank
                  Hank,

                  Thanks! I love the machine, and altough I don't deserve to have it yet, I aim to!

                  Yes I'm using the remote foot control... But in the manual there is a graph they show on what the curve of it's operation is supposed to look like.. It shows initial about 30%, then ramps up... And maintains full output till you get to the end of the weld... I was mimicking that...

                  I'm not sure about how it works... Is it mearly lowering the Amperage? When I lower the amperage on the machine much below the recommended range... the weld is not right... I would have to keep the pedal about half way probably to slow it down enough...

                  Could you or someone elaborate more on it's proper use?

                  Thanks,

                  Tony
                  Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner
                  Roadster BWE

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hmmm....another one learning to drive......in a Corvette.

                    Hello Tony,

                    Welcome to your new addiction.

                    I'm no pro, like Kevin, but I might be able to help a little. You have to get a feel for the equipment and the process. That will just take some arc time to get your hand-eye-foot coordination in sync. Then you need to understand what is going on when you strike that arc. With the proper amperage you will quickly establish a puddle and can start filling and moving along the bead. Just remember the base metal sinks away the heat from the puddle, the thicker it is, the more and quicker the heat sink so more amperage is needed to maintain that liquid puddle for welding. Different metal compositions conduct heat at varying rates too (just to make it more fun). In addition, the filler material added will absorb heat too which tends to cool the puddle a bit. So now all you have to do is maintain enough current to the weld puddle to keep it liquid by modulating the pedal.
                    I understand your desire to go slow, and you can, within a reasonable range. As you are going slow, realize that you are heating up the whole workpiece to a higher and higher temperature. Your heat affected zone is ever increasing as you slow your progression. An ever increasing area is approaching it's liquid state and eventually does become plastic causing your weld bead to sink and your filler forms a big blob on the bottom and leaves a depression in the bead. If you're asleep at the wheel a large area goes liquid and you get a bird's eye view of your shop floor. If you're doing this with steel, don't try aluminum yet. You might go suicidal on us.
                    So to recap, set your amperage about one amp to every 0.001" thickness of material, floor the pedal to establish the molten puddle and add filler while "moving out with a purpose", as my old first sargent use to say. Once the puddle is established you'll find you need to back off a little to finish your bead run. After a few seconds of bead, know that the base metal gets ever hotter and will need even a little less heat again. At the end of the bead you'll ramp off slowly on the pedal to prevent cratering ......oh forgot, you got that fancy azz crater fill program thingy in that Corvette.

                    Anyway, wanna be brief, just my $.02.

                    Tom

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      RoydRage

                      Just a couple of starters for you.

                      How are your eyes? Almost everyone over 40-45 years can benefit from wearing magnifing cheaters but a new welder might not realize it because you don't really know what you are looking at yet.
                      Next, practice holding a steady arc length. Place a washer on a sheet of paper. Point a pencil through the washer hole and proceed to move it around without marking the paper.
                      Practice feeding filler rod through your fingers. As in pictures...thumb against top two fingers pushing rod.
                      Practice moving washer and feeding rod at same time

                      As for trying to learn to print an 'A', you can practice holding arc length and feeding rod by simply laying a 1/8" rod on your 1/8" plate (things are easier on heavier plate) and weaving your torch over it. At a low heat (50 amps maybe) you can take your time and concentrate on tieing in the edges. Use a grinder to scribe yourself some lines. Next practice a higher profile bead by gently adding more filler as you advance (might need higher heat). Next move your filler sideways to give a wider bead.

                      Very basic but must knows
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RoydRage
                        Kevin,

                        Thanks for the quick reply... Although I specifically bought an inverter because it was purported to be easier to learn on, I'm thinking that in one aspect that it might be making things more difficult for me...
                        An inverter machine by itself does not make welding, especially tig, easier to learn. I don't know who told you this but IMO it is wrong. Welding is welding, no matter what machine you are using.

                        Originally posted by RoydRage
                        I think the problem is the inverters benefit of a 40% faster weld time...
                        I sure would like to know where you came up with that statistic. I have been welding with inverters for a couple of years now and can say without a doubt, they have not made for any faster of a weld time. Is it possible you mean something else?

                        The best thing you can do is post some pics of your welding. Without them, it is difficult at best to try and acertain what is going on for you from your descriptions.
                        Dynasty 350DX
                        Dynasty 200DX TigRunner
                        MM 350P
                        MM Passport Plus
                        Spectrum 375 Extreme
                        08' Trailblazer 302

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Speed

                          Originally posted by wb5jhy
                          Once the puddle is established you'll find you need to back off a little to finish your bead run. After a few seconds of bead, know that the base metal gets ever hotter and will need even a little less heat again. At the end of the bead you'll ramp off slowly on the pedal to prevent cratering ......oh forgot, you got that fancy azz crater fill program thingy in that Corvette.

                          Anyway, wanna be brief, just my $.02.

                          Tom
                          Tom,

                          Thanks for all the valuable suggestions... I have ran some decent Beads... It's just the speed at which I have to move, and the amount of filler material I have to add seems a bit much.

                          I have talked to a very expierienced welder that works at a shop that makes chambers out of 1/2" Stainless for making computer chips... He is awesome, and uses a traditional machine... He told me that he maxes the pedal & leaves it there, and showed me his speed with his hand... He moves one circle a little less than a second...

                          I on the other hand have to move 3 circles a second, and just lay the filler rod right down over the weld path... This way I have a bead that is slightly higher than the surface, and not going through the other side. This thing makes a puddle in about 2-3 Seconds! and he says that's way faster than his machine. which is a Miller 350. I mean I've done a decent weld in my 20min of arc time, which I'm happy about... It's just not neat, cause I have to move so fast...

                          I guess I have to ramp down the pedal when I get moving like you suggest... I'm just confused because he just leaves it floored, and is able to move slow.

                          It makes perfect sense to me what you are saying... As the workpiece gets hotter & hotter surrounding the weld, you need less & less power to keep the puddle wet, because less of the heat is dissapated into the cool surrounding area... So you should be gradually needing less & less heat.

                          Thanks, Tony
                          Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner
                          Roadster BWE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The amount of pedal you use is relative to the amount of amperage you have the machine set on.

                            in other words, if your dial maxes out at 300 amps, but you have it set only to 150 amps, half your pedal will give you around 75 amps. If you then turn your dial up to 300 amps, half the pedal will give you 150 amps.

                            Therefore, don't worry about how much pedal this guy you know uses, cause he probably sets his dial differently than you do.

                            Also, The amount of time it takes to form a puddle shouldn't be 3 seconds. Hammer down the pedal a bit faster to get the puddle going, then back off of it as you see it getting too hot....and settle into whatever heat works best. Most welders will wind up making small pedal adjustments about 3-4 times during the weld.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Inverter Speed

                              Originally posted by KB Fabrications
                              An inverter machine by itself does not make welding, especially tig, easier to learn. I don't know who told you this but IMO it is wrong. Welding is welding, no matter what machine you are using.


                              I sure would like to know where you came up with that statistic. I have been welding with inverters for a couple of years now and can say without a doubt, they have not made for any faster of a weld time. Is it possible you mean something else?

                              .

                              Kevin Here are just some of the articles that reference the speed & ease of use increase with inverters... There aren many more.. Tony




                              NEW, ADVANCED TIG WELDING MACHINES IMPROVE FABRICATIONhttp://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/articles11.html


                              http://www.millerwelds.com/education...s/story95.html
                              Quote:The difference between inverter and conventional TIG technology is like night and day," says Derek. "If I were ever to teach anyone how to weld, I would teach them how to weld on the Dynasty

                              With the Dynasty, you can weld much more quickly," says Derek Grundler, production manager. "And when you strike an arc, it draws a puddle at least TWICE as fast as conventional TIG."

                              With the Dynasty, arc starts are perfect,"

                              Outside of the dramatic increase in production, Derek recognizes an equally dramatic step up in the Dynasty's technology compared to conventional technology: ease-of-use.

                              ."



                              http://www.millerwelds.com/education...es/story1.html
                              Although AC/DC TIG inverters with an Advanced Squarewave arc demonstrate clear benefits, some fabricators hesitate to purchase them because of price. However, a return-on-investment calculation proves that an inverter makes much better economic sense in the right applications.

                              For example, Miller Electric's Syncrowave® 250 probably the world's best selling traditional AC/DC TIG machine has a list price of $2,457. Because inverters require more expensive materials, the Dynasty costs $4,605. However, the cost difference evaporates quickly because inverters 1) establish the weld puddle much faster, 2) increase travel speeds, 3) reduce welding and post-weld finishing time and 4) lower tungsten, gas and filler wire consumption.

                              Indiana Gratings conservatively reduces welding time by 25 percent with the Dynasty, so a 40-hour project now takes 30 hours. This creates the potential to bill an additional 10 operator-hours per week or, alternatively, raise billing rates by 25 percent. If a fabricator charges customers $35/hour for TIG services (a common industry rate), the Dynasty can increase profitability by $350 per week. In less than seven weeks, the benefits of Advanced Squarewave technology wipe out the cost difference between a Syncrowave and a Dynasty. Complete payback occurs in about 13 weeks, which eclipses the two-year time frame many purchasing agents use for this type of equipment.
                              Miller Dynasty 300DX Runner
                              Roadster BWE

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