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Need help with wiring garage for 210

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lgjhn
    If I'm reading the NEC correctly; on a 220V circuit, you don't need to carry a neutral. The two hots go to each side screw on his outlet and the ground goes to the green. Three conductors should be all he needs (black = hot, red = hot, green = ground)
    I don't have a copy of the NEC...Only going by what 2 electricians told me was now reccommended.?.? I don't see a need for it, & it has worked with 3 conductors for years.... but he's already got the 4 conductor cable...Why not separate the neutral & ground? It may not help, but it won't hurt anything.
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    • #17
      10/2 is sufficient, whether BX or RX cable. If the 10/3 is already installed, it's ok, just overkill. Wire color is not important as long as they both land on the breaker. Bottom line, check the receptacle for voltage before plugging in.
      LICENSED ELECTRICIAN
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      • #18
        http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...rage/index.htm

        I saved this link from an old thread hear on wireing a garage. maybe something in it can be of some help.
        To all who contribute to this board.
        My sincere thanks , Pete.

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        • #19
          My understanding is that the problem you could run into carrying that neutral in a 220V circuit, is that IF there ever is a short, you could potentially (no pun intended) heat up your whole neutral bus..... The neutral is needed in a 120v circuit to complete the circuit. a 220V circuit just needs 220V across the hot terminals. The ground in both 220 and 120 is for protection.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by lgjhn
            If I'm reading the NEC correctly; on a 220V circuit, you don't need to carry a neutral. The two hots go to each side screw on his outlet and the ground goes to the green. Three conductors should be all he needs (black = hot, red = hot, green = ground)
            I spoke to an electrician today after all of this. He instructed me just as stated above, a 220 does not require a neutral, run the 2 hots and ground. I will just cap the white at each end since the neutral is not necessary.
            ________________
            Greg

            Miller 210
            Diversion 165

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            • #21
              Confirmed. Since you already have the 4-wire cord, just ignore the white and do not use it. Connect black and red to the hots and the green/bare to the ground. Done.

              You could have done this with a 3-wire cord and used the white wire as a red, connected to hots at both ends. There is no neutral in a NEMA 6-50.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MAC702
                Confirmed. Since you already have the 4-wire cord, just ignore the white and do not use it. Connect black and red to the hots and the green/bare to the ground. Done.

                You could have done this with a 3-wire cord and used the white wire as a red, connected to hots at both ends. There is no neutral in a NEMA 6-50.
                When using a white as a hot wire it is customary ( and I believe maybe a code requirement ) to wrap black or red tape on the ends to denote the wire is a hot and not a neutral.

                Dennis
                Dennis


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                • #23
                  Thanks, Dennis, I took that for granted and forgot to mention it!

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                  • #24
                    Frank, not to be smart but I run ito that logic all the time. (I personally don't see the need for it, but don't want my insurance to be in jeopardy because I didn't wire something according to the NEC.) Because you do not thouroughly understand it is not a legitimate excuse for doing it right. In fact it should be all the more reason to follow the instructions. This seems to be a place where everyone wants to start a career in electrical engineering. Some subs are designed to use 3 wire and almost all new installs use 4 wire which is far superior. Grounds go on neutral at mains or anywhere there is a ground bar, anywhere a panel if fed with 3 wires it goes to neutral bar or a bonded ground bar. There are so many combinations of old and new systems out there it can be very confusing at times. DIY and Self Help andmore are good sites. John Nelson at DIT is extremely compentant at wiring help, he has extensive experience in explaning it to the DIY crowd and it would be worth hanging out. I went thru this with my neighbor,, I dont understand, and I just cant see why, a year later he comes back,,, ok,,, now I understand. The ground must be an uninteruped path back to the main neutral. I am going to post a couple pages again.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lgjhn
                      My understanding is that the problem you could run into carrying that neutral in a 220V circuit, is that IF there ever is a short, you could potentially (no pun intended) heat up your whole neutral bus..... The neutral is needed in a 120v circuit to complete the circuit. a 220V circuit just needs 220V across the hot terminals. The ground in both 220 and 120 is for protection.
                      A short is designed to go to the neutral, it carries the current to allow the breaker to trip. It must go to neutral.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sberry
                        A short is designed to go to the neutral, it carries the current to allow the breaker to trip. It must go to neutral.
                        Hi Carey,
                        Yes, I fully agree that it does in a 110V circuit as the neutral makes up the path for continuity and thus any overload current (for whatever reason) would obviously pop the breaker.
                        In a 220V circuit, it has been the thought for a long time that it presents the potential to put 220V into the neutral bus....not a good thing. It is my understanding that some of the new circuit designs are making provision for neutrals in a 220V application although I've not had to specify any at work yet. You will find most 220V applications (welder, hot water heater, most single-phase motors, etc. ) will not have the neutral provided for, just the two 110V hots that make up the 220V potential compared to ground for the device designed for it.

                        MM210 w/3035 Spooler
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                        • #27
                          lg, its still 120V to ground or neutral, a phase (leg) to phase short would make 230. We are not talking about an overloaded circuit, the breaker will trip on heat, we are talking about short circuit interuption although a short is basically a giant overload. There are a couple of other reasons to use grounding such as step potential but for the most part, or concern here is fault (short) protection.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sberry
                            lg, its still 120V to ground or neutral, a phase (leg) to phase short would make 230. We are not talking about an overloaded circuit, the breaker will trip on heat, we are talking about short circuit interuption although a short is basically a giant overload. There are a couple of other reasons to use grounding such as step potential but for the most part, or concern here is fault (short) protection.
                            Yep, you're correct: a short on either L1 or L2 to ground would be at 120V; but across L1 and L2 (phase to phase as you mention), you will be at 220V that the device is designed to run on.
                            Yeah, in a dead short situation (zero or very low resistance, in AC its really reactance), the low resistance will allow the huge surge in amps resulting in the heat that trips the breaker hopefully...otherwise, some cables are gonna get hot and melt somewhere.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lgjhn
                              the low resistance will allow the huge surge in amps resulting in the heat that trips the breaker hopefully...otherwise, some cables are gonna get hot and melt somewhere.
                              Just to clarify, typical circuit breakers are thermal-magnetic. They trip thermally when overloaded for a sufficient amount of time. They trip magnetically for low-resistance short-circuits, MUCH quicker than a thermal trip.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MAC702
                                Just to clarify, typical circuit breakers are thermal-magnetic. They trip thermally when overloaded for a sufficient amount of time. They trip magnetically for low-resistance short-circuits, MUCH quicker than a thermal trip.
                                True..... I've seen a few older breakers that would cause nuicance trips in that they would trip at a very low load...well below their rating. They wouldn't be hot or anything; I suspect they had gotten weak magnetically with age.....

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