Electrical Question

[Sberry]

There was a question a while back. It was,,, My mother inlaw needs a cord to run the hedge trimmer and a leaf blower in her flower bed. I was surprised at the answers from some real technical people. It didnt make post 3 before the suggestion she head down to the supply house for 100 ft of SO and some custom ends. If you asked me 25 yrs ago I would have used a 12 MC cable and double tap a 30 breaker for 2 outlets to do real welding and run 1/8 lo hy I would have said,,,, no way and the new 200 class has incredible low current draw. The 6-50-R is actually used on 30A welding circuits as well as 50. Requires a 30 breaker if the minimum wire size is used. The problem is the size listing on terminations I believe, takes away any savings and really why would anyone want to wire it so puny at that level a step or 2 up is cost negligent.
What it does mean is that it now doesnt need to be a gut wrenching investment to run a convenience outlet. Not that it really ever was but it got made to from lots of hearsay understanding of the requirements, the codes and the real load and a whole lot of future proof stuff all mixxed in to one. The lay person focuses on one line of a code that has special exception for this for a reason and about a dozen details and foot notes describing the nature of the circuit and somehow after all this time failed to asses the real risk according to so many people have their own opinion about it.
Some of things that lead too far from the instruction introduce additional code and saftey issues that ar3e below the general understanding of circuit design etc. One is that big machines over 60 often not designed to be cable wired. Breaker wrong for the listed recept and smaller machines may be plugged in to larger ocpd circuits.
I am not real technical and have problem with ruduimentary math but in some sense see and understand how using a 16 extension cord on a 20A circuit for 95% of the worlds domestic and small work isnt such a hazzard as it is to the lay person so to speak. I am a half azz contractor farmer and full time maniac according to some but my used for a 12 cord is pretty low. When I gotta reach for a too I am all about 100 ft of 16, I can zing a 2x4 or 2 off with the circ without the world catching on fire.

[Sberry]

I do recall a time the welding supply was substandard. The body shop calls and wonder why the machine isnt working. Its a converted storage building and had a long chain 15A circuit, lights and a couple convenience outlets. The dopes got a 140 plugged in to 25 ft trouble light with 100 watt lamp burning in it. Wrong polarity pn top of it. These guys are super stupid, i got them 50 fy 12 cord and got back to a 20 near the main. The other time i saw this at a junkyard where the guy knows more than most do about this type of thing
. Even though it could plug direct to the circuit the dope has it on one of those 40 ft little reels, 16 cord if that.
.

[Sberry]

These are some super knobs, most people have a better concept or can be splained to . They are beyond dumb, not the type here that be asking about good practices. Most people asking on these forums want to do right.

[WillieB]

A new neighbor moved in and commented the electric was really hot here despite us being on long rural line. Its an extension but femand is so low. I the only guy ion 5 miles of wire even run a 50a welder.
most branch circuits are so short and used 1 at a time, vrry little constant hi draw and moderate heat and air con our service is solid.
i understand the concept Willie Brings to this however i dont see equipment being supplied at 200v . We cant enen overload our service to get it below 240.
i was schooledvearly on about the perils of v drop , i remember that but in the long run its not been the problem we been led to assume.

Forgive me. I bow to your superior knowledge. Voltage drop is not a "thing". Wish I had known you 52 years ago. I've been sizing conductors wrong all these years. From here on it's #12 for everything!.

[Sberry]

What is it you are taking personnel? No one said you were doing it wrong. What I said there is an almost compulsive obsession fueled by forums that focuses almost exclusively on a volt or pound of pressure drop.. As a matter of fact the worry about dropping to 200 volts says a lot.. Another forum the guy is worried about 1 volt loss fort a welding circuit. Should we cheer him on with a big atta boy,,, you go or should we use 52 years of experience to explain why 1 volt loss isnt much to worry about on an intermittent circuit..
What is it we sposed to be discussing on this forum,,, I read what you write,

[Sberry]

I think we are doing a disservice to a guy spends 3 or 4 grand on a machine comes with a 14 cord on it then we tell him is house will burn down if he doesnt use a number 6 wire,,,, first guy says that then 3 more jump on like its a fact. Most comes from guys never read the instruction manual and code learning from "someone" told me.

[Sberry]

I think what kind of got under my skin with this was a guy explains how he did it,,, wired all his welder outlets to 80A circuits so he could use them all, his new 211 and a dialarc maybe,, but you know,,, thats ok cause I used a number 4 wire,,, then guys claim to do rhis work neither dont bother to say maybe this isnt right or actually endorse this idea with the statement that it wont overheat the wire so its ok. There is plenty of room to throw 2 cents in there but didnt see much.
Had another one with a license in his pocket giving a how to using range and dryer plugs, this is a 50 yr sparky telling newbies to cut the cord off and rummage for old parts. , I bee glad to see another 50 yrs guy tell them maybe thats not the best idea.

[Sberry]

I aint talking to experts anyway. I am aiming at guys asking a question. Its not to fun them but what should we tell s guy looks at a chart snd desides he needs a number 4 to keep the drop to 1
he is basing this calc on the fact its a 50 circuit and really hasnt read his manual and doesnt understand any of it. Its a lonnnnng circuit, 45 ft .
while that sounds half way to the sun the machine being connected allows 65 ft of 14. His might have been 12, i dont recall exact but while voltage drop is "real" the likelyhood of this being a real problem is a different matter.
Of course we can leave him wondering every time he squeezes the trigger if he is losing something with the 6 he is planning on running while he makes payments on the wire to feed a 200 wirefeeder.

[WillieB]

As I said, I bow to your superior knowledge. I was uninformed. Now that you are here I am not needed & I am wrong.

Fact is the formulas can't predict what portion of capacity an individual will need from a welder. Plenty of people welding nothing heavier than auto body can get by on lamp cord feeding their welder.

Welder manufacturers are bound by "labratory" approval only (often UL) UL tests only overheat of a welder cord. It is common a welder cord be 105 degree Celcius rated. 6' long cords are not compelled to factor voltage loss.

I stand by my opinion that a welder powered by supply generating more heat in the group of conductors supplying it than the arc will not perform as designed.

[Sberry]

Why is it you think its about you?

[Sberry]

Second, no one thinks it should be underwired, i am not sure where that conclusion comes from. We,, meaning mist of us includi g you think it should be upsized, i do it but why the compulsive instance that enery cir uit needs to be 6 and if it aint its goi g to drip to 200 volts ?
. Di we suze every cord for 20a cause its plufged in to a 20 circuit? I dont see anyone suggesti g a cord smaller than the machine co.es with but some of these posts seem to think a 6 will let a 211 do more work. A 10 is 2 sizes bigger than miller lists, how much better does it have to be? Them, lincoln. Yellow too been at this befire most of us were wiring. So has the code been sround for a while, got to wonder why they dont think this is a problem and why they havnt changed cord sizes on a buzzee or the instruction manual since they invented it?

[Sberry]

I really wonder what all the experience and traing is for it there is only a 1 note answer based on opinion.
. To add to that yes the manufacture has different rules like the poco but the circuit they reccomend has to follow the code.

[Sberry]

I aint talking to you anyway, you know too much fo learn anything from me. But,, my opinion is, you know more about electric than i ever will and that is meant to be sincere. I really dont know anything about electricity, that could be easly proven.
what i am familiar with is wiring welders in particular and have used a lot of them in all kinds of situations. Never ran across one as best i can recall that wasnt working cause of v drop or overheat the wire with a minor exception of trying my Maxstar on 150 ft at 120v. Turn it up past 75 and trips a breaker.
That is not speculative, its not what uf be different if we saw it even just on occasion but never but ask this question on a forum and its a sure bet its gonna happen? Got to wonder why they ever create these instructions uf they obviously faulty.

[Sberry]

Then we come across a post where a knob is giving instructions about how to chop off the mvp and wire on a 50 end,, not one master bothers to comment on this but wire it with less than a 6 and we get all kinds of opinions. This is whats wrong with the picture. 1 note band.

[Sberry]

I am being reflective in the sense that what was my understanding 40 yrs ago and what is it now and was my speculation correct, did my future proof pay off? This is somewhat fundamental to circuit and utility design. Stuff that was sized back in the day was first made better by pressure or voltage increase and now so many circuits in use with only a few watts in load as fixtures changed, same for pipe size.
The cost/difficulty benefit is a bit different in commercial industrial but I see this some in air fittings with the increase of complexity of the diy design while reducing the effeciency or effectiveness while obsessing over main pipe size,,, it might not work as well as a more simple version and my last remodel had removed more than I added, stripped out so much excessive equipment and reduced piping by moving a couple hydrants. Biggest change I would have made to long runs would have been from steel to tubing in the overhead and home run a spot or 2 vs branch. Simply to reduce fittings in a tall building.
Smaller common pipe is so much easier for the diy to deal with and they aint always got to run it all in one. I never had to add a number 2 welding circuit to the door opener and never had to run one any place but from local to a panel and dont need it in the back corner. For my common machines, it was a long time ago and I had a bit different understanding of true demand and I do a couple outlets in 6, had free wire and 10 ft of its own 3/4, not a big deal but in hindsight would have never missed a stroke on number 10 and some of my later installs are that way, a couple with 30 a couple with 50 own pipe.