Electrical Question

[WillieB]

I absolutely agree. A 6/60 is tailor made for the machine and while method matters a little its a size better than the machine needs and the V drop calcs seem to take the worst scenerio. What I mean by that is the distance is the huge factor. It does become a factor at some point but a lot of difference between a 12 at 75 ft and a 10 at 35 for a buzzer.
That machine is so much better duty, they allow the wire to be used 2 or 3x as long time, the 252 mig class is similar in nature.
The only reason this even interests me is the difference in view. I think it might be simpler to true electricians like Willie and Mac but the one line response to every answer is the breaker protects the wire from thermal which is fundamentaly different than the reality is its sized to allow sufficient current to pass.

Truth is a very small wire will not overheat under the load from this welder. Heat is most a concern at connections, there, it might burn with too small a wire. A transformer based welder is built to run best at rated voltage. The circuit voltage drop is only a component in calculating voltage drop. If supplied with too small conductors over distance, they won't overheat, loss is dispersed over a lot of distance, but performance will be affected.

[Sberry]

I agree that too small would be a problem but we talking within code and within mfg specs. I am not sure how much length factors in overheat, I spose some if the v drop is significant and where its a runaway is a guess , there is a point it overheat and simply wont cool anymore. I agree performance can be an issue.
I test a little on a 120V unit. 50 ft of 12, wide open north of 20A, 4v drop. 50 ft of 14 cord, about 8, didnt drop below 114 or 115 as I recall and a real fussy operator might tune the machine a little.
I also agree about the connections. A 10 is so much more robust than a 12.

[Sberry]

I stick pretty close to home where my equipment is in good shape and wired a step above the standards but when I was a sprout welded from a whole truckload of buzzers on 10 cable circuits till they were near glowing. Most were short and often something we installed where connections were new and tight but I cant recall ever opening a welder recept to find a burned wire. We ran them with total disregard for duty cycle.
I think cooling equipment might be the worst as I have found various connects there had cooked. Had one the other day trip a breaker and sure as sheet the connection had overheated right at it. was still firm and seemed tight, I ran current, 25A on a 10 thwn. When we sit around and think about it seems like welding would be there but must be short enough (time) that it doesnt act the same way despite having higher draws.

[Sberry]

I have never ran a buzzer at 225. They are rated for 48 draw. The real pull is closer to 40. My DC version is 38 or so maybe at 115 out its been a while. These machines were designed and rated when V was 220. There is a tendency with wire and plumb where fear creeps in, what if so soon we got a 3/4 line to a toilet or a sink or shower that the rate is 25% what it used to be over the same time. Peak has went down, not only was the old 1/2 line good enough for the new but in truth will now support 3x or more fixtures than it did 30 yrs ago and in some cases with water it slows the delivery speed.
There is almost a compulsion to get as much as we can vs designing to be adequate and meet the demand.
Is the goal to serve the load or use as much as we can. We got 400A services now to support 100 load.. Garage loads in residential type settings are really not much in a demand calc. My neighbor just put 50A to a big camper. He was lamenting over not putting 60 so he could plug extra 10 in to a utility recept along side,,,, its hard to splain cause the plug on it is 50 doesnt mean the load is 50 and he going around adding all the appliances and before he ever turns a light on assumes he gonna have 2 AC and everything on in the place and then run a bunch of aux power tools.
It hasnt pulled more than a few watts since it was parked there a year ago, could have ran it with a 14 cord but still worried about overloading it.

[Sberry]

Most experienced men realize after a while that because there is a 20A breaker on the line its not the load and even heavy draws are 13 or so continuous and larger are intermittent with tools that come with a 16 cord. A few 14. Usually things are not the worst, or not the best. Most loads are not 20A at 100 ft.

[WillieB]

I agree that too small would be a problem but we talking within code and within mfg specs. I am not sure how much length factors in overheat, I spose some if the v drop is significant and where its a runaway is a guess , there is a point it overheat and simply wont cool anymore. I agree performance can be an issue.
I test a little on a 120V unit. 50 ft of 12, wide open north of 20A, 4v drop. 50 ft of 14 cord, about 8, didnt drop below 114 or 115 as I recall and a real fussy operator might tune the machine a little.
I also agree about the connections. A 10 is so much more robust than a 12.

Running this machine on #10 will not overheat the wire. It might overheat at connections. Depending on conductor sizes, length, & other load, your welder might receive only 200? volts. Then, it will not work as designed.

[Sberry]

Its input at its rated is about the same as a buzzer. With 50 dt of 12 it would still see 220,with a 10 way less than 1/3 the loss. I spose everyones definition of long is different but most welding circuits rated t 75 ft. My longest one is 1/2 of that. Good chance the new owner cant or wont be able to apply that much load especially for that long. Need the gas, the large wire, the gun and the work.

[WillieB]

It ain't only the circuit, it's the length from the transformer. Mine, (for example) runs 190 feet down the power pole, across the lawn, 60' through the cellar, 100' to the garage, 40' across the garage. Often it is plugged into a 25' extention cord. Add them up, double that number, cause electrons flow round trip.

[Sberry]

Sure its total length. For example my building is 100 ft wire from the tranny, the conductors are 500 mcm, rhe panels are 4 ft from the meter, 3/0 copper and most of the real eork a few ft from the panel but my building is 80 ft wide and 100 ft to the panel on the other side. While the 120 outlet is more than 100 ft from.the service 100 ft of it is number 2, its not total length on 12 wire

[Sberry]

I did a trouble shoot load test. It was on a long daisy chain from the tranny with a bunch of connected services
. 130A and a volt drop on 100 service. So good got yo add a chunk of cord and use a longer circuit to keep the roofing nailer ftom tripping.
while there is a lot of worry about this in the real world never have a problem with drop.
i ran a whole bunch of buzzers toll they near glow from a 10 cable in the southern sun

[Sberry]

A new neighbor moved in and commented the electric was really hot here despite us being on long rural line. Its an extension but femand is so low. I the only guy ion 5 miles of wire even run a 50a welder.
most branch circuits are so short and used 1 at a time, vrry little constant hi draw and moderate heat and air con our service is solid.
i understand the concept Willie Brings to this however i dont see equipment being supplied at 200v . We cant enen overload our service to get it below 240.
i was schooledvearly on about the perils of v drop , i remember that but in the long run its not been the problem we been led to assume.

[Sberry]

That is not to be argumentative but simply relative observstion. Lots of 5 ho air comps been wired 10 cable and not caught fire or cost money.

[Sberry]

Hank J was a master here and when asked he had a grip. To the right people the snswer was buy 25 ft of 10/2 ans get welding today and Sundiwn of old days worked out of a shanty with 30A service just dandy.

[Sberry]

Lets assume the worst what if,, which someone rigz a device with 50 or larger, the breaker will work. But the real reason is,, what if the demand becomes bigger? I say if the guy needs a 6 cable 10 yrs from now then face it. If i am future proof not gonna fug around and run a number 2 alum cable to another panel.

[Sberry]

I did house recent and put 20 spaces under the kitchen. It had a bath there and unstairs stuff and saved a huge amount of wire.
. There is an almost compulsion tio think about branch and tree for serving simultenious loads which is true but where its really good is single load long run.