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Multimatic 255 & Linc.250LX- ALMOST THERE

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  • Multimatic 255 & Linc.250LX- ALMOST THERE

    Hoping someone has some deeper experience/ knowledge or even the schematics for gun recognition in the brain on the multimatic 255.
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    I have a Multimatic 255 and a lincoln Magnum 250 LX spoolgun that I want to use together. I have had many people tell me (as well as read authors on this forum) that it could never work. Well I have SEEN it work with this setup, unfortunately I did not get the guys phone number or details cause I just assumed it would be easy to do. I still think it is easy, however there is just some communication error that I don’t know how to solve yet. I will attach pictures which will show the issue. Click image for larger version

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    Thank you to the guys who helped me get this far into this ‘build’! It wasn’t to hard to find the Amphenol 7pin Lincoln to 10 pin Miller connectors, nor was it hard to wire them up. The tricky thing is figuring out what the 255 is ‘seeing’ with the Magnum to identify the gun as an XR-A Python push-pull gun.... which is very close to what I want, however instead of driving the internal wire feeding hub, I need it to send power thru the 10 pin [to 7pin] into the magnum to drive the spool on the gun.

    There are a couple guys, beyond you guys who kindly gave me some hints on my first post, that I used info from (I will mention you when I can remember your handles) who allowed me to easily get to the place I am at; with connector purchases and mating the correct wires to each of the plugs. I’m sure they know who they are- with this knowledge-and I was hoping they or anyone else may be able to let me know what I am missing, what I did wrong or what I still need to do.

    I know some guys will say stop being cheap & buy a Miller spoolgun or the Lincoln gun is crap or I shouldn’t be doing that or that it simply can’t be done. Please don’t waste your time commenting as I don’t want to read it and I’m sure all the guys using this forum for its amazing purpose of providing greater knowledge for us all, don’t want to hear it either.

    I also know that Miller, as a company, would rather me buy a Miller spool gun than ‘fool’ with their machine and install a competitors gun...well to that I say, in this tone of economic tragedy with covid, people, like myself losing their main income, we have to give a little concession for guys, like me, doing their best to make it by with ‘what I got’ cause I guarantee when the jobs start rolling in again, I will be running down to buy a BRAND NEW push-pull gun from Miller if it indeed IS someone from Miller who helps me with this setup! However, as I’m sure many of you guys would consider the same approach; getting railroaded by one side would make me try the other when funds allowed.

    Anyhow, enough trying to keep this post clear of naysayers..... with all that said, I would really appreciate hearing from you guys with this greater knowledge to see if you could help me out. Thanks guys.
    Attached Files

  • #2
    About the only difference between the Magnum LX and Spoolmatic, "communication-wise" are the resistances across their components. It's either sensing current through the amperage control circuit or the motor windings because there isn't anything else in the Spoolgun to communicate.

    The Magnum uses a 10k potentiometer and the Spoolmatic uses a 5k potentiometer. It might be sensing the current through the amperage control circuit (used to be 10V), and if it's not 2mA (the LX would only show 1mA), then throws an error. The small difference here is probably tough to tell, so it's probably with the motor windings. What are you getting for resistance across pins E and H on the 10-pin connector?

    It may be it senses resistance across the motor windings and the two don't match. What resistance are you getting across the motor windings (should be pins B and C on the 10-pin connector)?

    Jon

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    • #3
      Just looking through the 255 op manual, it apparently is only compatible with the Spoolmatic, Spoolmatic, and Aluma-Pro Lite. That and it auto detects between a pedal and a Spoolgun/push-pull gun on the same connector leads me to think it's sensing the Spoolgun/pull gun winding resistance to figure out which gun it is. My Abicor Binzel guns measure 12-22 ohms, and for some reason my Spoolmatic is measuring ~100 ohms (this seems high to me, but continues to check the same). That could be your issue.
      Jon

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      • #4
        Thanks for the response Jon!

        Between E&H I got 4.85 k ohms
        and between B&C I got 27.5 ohms

        That was with the potentiometer at low and high.

        Could it actually be reading off the motor windings? If it’s a straight analog signal and not using the wiring as a can-bus and/or with PWM with some sort of two way communication then would it not be reading the resistance before the motor windings at the potentiometer? I’m which case I would think I could add resistance in to ‘trick it’ but not be able to take any resistance out.
        maybe I’m reaching for straws and not understanding how it is reading the gun input.

        Bart

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        • #5
          I am going to try putting some extra resistance between b&c to equal 100 ohms to see if the machine changes it mind....

          I will let you know.

          Bart

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          • #6
            Hi Jon, if you, or anyone reading this with a newer Miller spoolmatic with a 10 pin connector, could check the resistance between pin J and pin H, I believe that is they ‘key’ code that the machine uses to identify the peripheral accessory. I could be wrong but I did find a schematic that mentions this.
            thanks,
            Bart

            Comment


            • #7
              Bart, sure enough, the Aluma-Pro Lite has a resistor between H and J. The regular Aluma Pro does too. My gun reads open loop from H to J, and I am pretty sure all of the Spoolmatics and Pythons come that way. Do you have to manually select between spoolgun and push pull? I noticed in the manual you need to select between the different spoolguns before calibrating. If you do need to manually put it into push-pull, it might be looking for some current across H and J. That resistor looks like it's part of the switch and potentiometer assembly, hopefully that's it.
              ​​​​​

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              • #8
                Regarding the motor windings, it's not worth adding resistance in series because it will limit your current and motor torque, which will screw up the feeding.

                Comment


                • #9
                  HI Jon, Guess I should have read this one before I responded to the other one. Thank you for checking into that for me. No need to respond to both of my posts. I only opened the other one because it’s a new idea I am going with and people may drop out from this conversation but have a spoolmate 15 or 30 or ‘mate 200 that would be able to get me the readings off of them. Regardless I’ve got some ‘underground info’ if you can call it that, which pointed me to the direction of J having resistance. The info that I have received is not in and may actually be conflicting in the manuals, so you’ll have to humour me. There is a reason this resistance among other things are not mentioned in the manuals.

                  Am I correct to assume that you do not have one of those three guns that I mention but you do have an aluma-pro and an Aluma-pro lite? If so, would you be able to provide me with how many ohms they read between H & J? That would be a big help for me.

                  You are correct about extra resistance on the motor giving me a different feed rate however that can be corrected by the Manual correction that I can make in the menus.

                  If I am able to get those resistance numbers between H and J for the spoolmatic 15,20 and spoolmate 200, it will get me that much closer to unlocking the Miller gun identification feature, and finding the key to being able to use my 250lx. If it turns out there is an open circuit there, I would need to find the resistance between Pin J and the rest of the pins.

                  If someone from Miller can contact me on how I can use my 250lx, that would be fantastic and I won’t have to continue this investigation online!

                  Anyhow My question still stands. Does anybody have Spoolmatic 15, 30 or spoolmate 200 that could test the resistance between pins H & J And let me know what the ohms is reading?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Bart, my XR-15W is basically an older Spoolmatic 15A (detachable top opening) with water lines inside. I had a Spoolmate 200 and rebuilt a few Spoolmatics - not the most current model, but they did have the new rounded body and fastips. The Spoolmatics didn't have anything connected to pins I or J, just open loop to all other pins. I never checked on the Spoolmate, but it's all very interesting. I saw the Aluma-Pro manuals show a gun sensing resistor between H and J, but am definitely curious about the spoolguns. I'll check with some buddies who may have a new model.
                    Jon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also, sorry I forgot to include it - I don't have any of the Aluma-Pro guns, just saw in their manuals that they had a gun sensing resistor between H and J. I have a buddy out here whoay still have his, will check with him. I am surprised Miller Tech won't give you the resistance there. It looks to be R1 in the Aluma-Pro Lite and R5 in the Aluma-Pro. Looking even further at that diagram, something tells me that resistor is right in the connector. I wonder if that's why you can only buy the complete control cable, at least for the Aluma-Pro and Lite.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bart, I just talked with Chris at Miller - he said the Aluma-Pro uses a 1/2W 115k ohm 1% resistor across pin H and J, and the "pistol grip" guns have just a jumper across H and J. I am assuming that is for the new XR and Spoolmatics, but can't confirm. The Aluma-Pro Lite isn't in his area, but he said it likely had a different resistor, as all of these motors have different tuning curves in the software. Hopefully this gets you closer.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bart, I am understanding your frustration with the tech information on this one. I would say from my experiences with Lincoln Powerwaves, Miller has better support than Lincolns though. Here's what I received from a few of the Miller techs (a lot of this is compartmentalized)

                          1. The MultiM 255 auto detects spoolgun vs. push-pull gun (you plug in the connector, turn on the machine and it gives you the error above). There is no setting/menu to tell the MuM255 you are using a Spoolgun instead of a Push-Pull. The MuM 255 tech is asking the software team how the unit senses the difference between a Spoolgun and Push-Pull (specifically the Python, for reasons below)

                          2. Most Miller Push-Pull units have a resistor between H and J in the connector:
                          Aluma-Pro - R5, 1/2W 115k ohm
                          XR-PRO - R5, 1/2W 115k ohm
                          Aluma-Pro Lite - R1, 1/2W 115k ohm
                          XR-A Python - open loop, no connection
                          Aluma-Pro Plus - completely different, uses R6 as sense resistor, has a different pinout, and has a digital tach in the gun body, so not compatible at all. Only included for completeness...

                          3. Spoolmatic 15/30A and Spoolmate 200 don't use pin J (nothing connected from H to J). Miller also switched later guns to a 10k potentiometer (not sure when, but it's not relevant since your Magnum 250LX should use a 10k potentiometer, please confirm).
                          ​​​​​
                          4. The specs on the Spoolmatic guns is a resistance measurement across the windings of anywhere from 10-100 ohms is ok. I can't see measuring motor winding resistance as a good method for determining guns.

                          5. We'll see what the software team says about how the machine identifies between a Spoolmatic 15/30A and a XR-A Python since both are apparently open across pins H and J.

                          Hope this helps,
                          Jon


                          Last edited by jjohn76; 01-07-2021, 10:49 PM.

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