Repair Costs For Welders

[own6volvos]

TMT,

Are you ever actually going to buy a welding machine or are you just making a career out of over-analysis?

You have been complaining about Miller's business practices (pulser option) and questioning their equipment's reliability for months. And you have a conspiracy theory to add to most of it (suggesting that they price their replacement parts at a point intended to force you to replace the unit).

Now you are prodding Andy to spend a bunch of time generating "cost to repair" info that will be meaningless on an individual basis. Say "warranty repair #1" costs nothing to repair (user error, loose connection, etc) and "warranty repair #2" costs $700 to repair. The average cost to repair is now $350. How does that information help you when you go buy someone's beat up welder off e-bay? That's right, it doesn't help at all.

I'd love to stay and chat, but I've got to go out into the shop and use my Miller Sycnro 250, and my Miller MM210, and my Miller Spectrum 625, none of which have ever had the slightest hiccup.

Good luck with your analysis.

JD

Almost any company keeps records of repair costs, its just normal business practice. I doubt in the 100,000+ welders sold, only 2 have been repaired, so the numbers they have to work with are for a decent size test group.

Also, 700 for a main board is very high. My motherboard in my computer is 200x more advanced and complicated and they run 100 bucks, and maybe 90 for a cpu.

[kejohnson]

Almost any company keeps records of repair costs, its just normal business practice. I doubt in the 100,000+ welders sold, only 2 have been repaired, so the numbers they have to work with are for a decent size test group.

Also, 700 for a main board is very high. My motherboard in my computer is 200x more advanced and complicated and they run 100 bucks, and maybe 90 for a cpu.

Actually a $100.00 motherboard in a PC may be a little low, but sure isn't industrial quality. When we work on an industrial type PC, say a server, the Motherboard is around $325.00 and Xeon processor(s) run up to $725.00 each. I am sure that the Miller boards are somewhat more industrial than the standard $300.00 home PC, plus they do not have the economy of scale that PC makers do. Just go to Comdex and you will find boards from every country and every quality. So I'm not sure it is an apples to apples comparision.

Own6 - Been following the issue on your MM210. Sounds like you found a potential problem and they are working well with you. I think thats what it is all about, fixing the issues. Looks like you should help out their design team

[own6volvos]

Actually a $100.00 motherboard in a PC may be a little low, but sure isn't industrial quality. When we work on an industrial type PC, say a server, the Motherboard is around $325.00 and Xeon processor(s) run up to $725.00 each. I am sure that the Miller boards are somewhat more industrial than the standard $300.00 home PC, plus they do not have the economy of scale that PC makers do. Just go to Comdex and you will find boards from every country and every quality. So I'm not sure it is an apples to apples comparision.

Server boards and Xeon chips don't cost any more to make than a celeron based board and celeron chip. Its all in the numbers and how much a company can and will sell a part for. The only thing special about the parts Miller uses in its units is the PCB they are mounted on seems a bit stiffer and robust, and the thing is coated down with a hard snot mixture to prevent dust and water damage. Electronics pieces are dirt cheap.

Own6 - Been following the issue on your MM210. Sounds like you found a potential problem and they are working well with you. I think thats what it is all about, fixing the issues. Looks like you should help out their design team

If only, I am out of a job right now and they are only like an hour or so away

[kejohnson]

Own6

The server boards are usually several layers deeper with their traces. When the laptops started getting smaller the layers were at least 7 deep and I don't have any idea now, but I'm sure its doubled. Sure makes it rough to trace out voltage levels on the boards.I'm sure the cost difference in production would be minimal. The same is true on the Xeon chips, more cache, extra registers, more silicon. I'm sure most of it is in R&D and they don't sell as many, plus it usually is commercial users who buy them.

With your knowledge it would be great if you could get on at Miller, I'm sure you would be a great asset to them.

[own6volvos]

The server boards are usually several layers deeper with their traces. When the laptops started getting smaller the layers were at least 7 deep and I don't have any idea now, but I'm sure its doubled. Sure makes it rough to trace out voltage levels on the boards.I'm sure the cost difference in production would be minimal. The same is true on the Xeon chips, more cache, extra registers, more silicon. I'm sure most of it is in R&D and they don't sell as many, plus it usually is commercial users who buy them.

With your knowledge it would be great if you could get on at Miller, I'm sure you would be a great asset to them.

Well, almost any computer boards these days have multiple layers. Just a given with the amount of components you need to connect. With those CPU's, most are made exactly the same to cut down on cost, and then hardware locked into a certain speed and feature set and quality range.

Now I can understand the volume part, but still.. thats a big cost for a little board.

[kejohnson]

No Argument

I do agree, we run big Cisco routers that single adapters are well over 14K and that just gives you a slot to plug in another 25K board. I guess its just in the value of the thing. Just look at medicine, you know the pill itself doesn't cost that much, but the years of research. Not saying its right, but I do know R&D isn't cheap.

[Too_Many_Tools]

Andy,

It's been over a month since I requested what the average cost to repair a DX200 was....any information yet?

Thanks

TMT

[Bob Sigmon]

Obviously, not!

It's like boats, planes and mansions, I guess. If you have to ask you can afford it!

[burninbriar]

I have never used cost of repair as a determining factor on a new purchase. To start with, if the product breaks down so often that repair cost is a factor in my purchase decision , I don't want it, period.
With sales competition the way it is today there is not enough price differance in equal quality merchandice to justify sacrificing features or warrenty on the basis that in 5 years if a particular part that you used for you're analisis happens to fail it would only cost $500 as opposed to $525 to fix, provided the part is still available and the price differance is still the same.
Given the scenario that the two items are identicle in every way except repair cost, the little bit of saveing you might encounter would be eaten up by the months of research , catigorizeing failure rate and cost on all the makes and models of that peice of equipment.
The only thing I would concider along this line would be parts availability, and from what I know, Miller ranks very high in this area, even concidering youre dilemma with the pc 300.

Suppose you are at an auction (like Ebay) and a like new DX200 TIG is coming up for bidding. You know that the owner said it was "kinda working". Knowing what the average cost of repair for the welder would definitely enter into how much you would be willing to bid.

Thanks

TMT

It would be foolish to bid on an item with a description like that based on average repair cost. A lot of seriously dammaged machines are not repaired and this machine is likely to fall into that catagory. It would be much wiser to talk to the seller and try to analyse the problem and then contact a repair shop for an estemate based on currant priceing. If the seller does not want to discuss the condition of the welder I would avoid the sale completely.

sorry for the long post but I just had to vent my opinion on this subject.

[lramberson]

I believe you hit the nail on the head burninbriar, and the post was very direct may I add.

Cost of repair & time in the field are considerations on any purchase as proven by Consumer Reports but as proven with this type of publication you have to have time & exposure.
I have researched to my wits end before my purchase on the short term & extreme longivity of the inverter system and have found a few burps along the way... As posted in this forum (may I add) HF starts & a few wrong tungstens (I guess I did not read the manual) problems.
My system even with it's low hours of usage have had no problems, but may I add the extreme conditions it is exposed to are never a consideration (packed & shipped with the expectation it will work) and handled without kit gloves.
Problems take time to arise.
So TMT take a nap and we will let you know what happens in a couple more months.
The glass is always half full on my table.
Laurence

[ASKANDY]

Put to bed

Well, here is the info.

Because there are no habitual failures, I can only give you approximates of different things that has gone bad. These prices are NOT including labor since labor varies by region.

I would say that by the numbers, a main pcb would be the most apt to fail and those are $373.
A Micro pcb is $294.
A HF pcb is $311.
And if the power modules go, they are $300 a piece.

Those are List prices and some service agencies don't charge list.

For argument.... A Syncrowave main pcb is $746.

I hope this is what you wanted. It's all the data we have.

Andy

[own6volvos]

While that is pretty good, one thing that would make a lot of difference is how common is it for one thing to happen, compared to a similar thing on another model.

For instance, the syncrowave one costs more, but does it go out as much as the board on the dynasty?

[arcflash]

good thing I didnt bet on this!

I never would have thought Miller or any other company for that matter would have furnished such information.
Information like This can always be used against you and is rarely used by others in a positive way.
This is why attornys (spit!) always say dont answer any questions.
My hat is off to Andy and Miller for being forthcoming.


Glad to be Blue.

Geo.

[Bob Sigmon]

O6V,

Because there are no habitual failures, I can only give you approximates. . .

I think that this is the main point! If you think that any product that you buy is "never" going to have a problem, I hope you don't own any cars!

I doubt that even Volvo doesn't have this kind of information for the public. I think that they are good cars (as are many others) but I still bet there are things that can go wrong.

I buy what I want, take care of what I buy and would pay for repairs that happen out of warranty. Actually I've never had anything (power tools) break in warranty or out. And I have a butt load of tools gathered over the last 30 years.

Just my opinion, of course. YMMV

[fun4now]

i have had some fail right out of the gate, but as i mostly buy top quality it is warenteed and or i was buying a cheepo for a quick fix and just except the failure. i would put Miller in the if it fails it is most likely going to fail right out of the box and be coverd under worentee if not it will be due to severe use and it will have erned being repaired or replaced after all nothing can be expected to last forever.

Thanks ANDY and miller as always stand up people to deal with.