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  • Starting with nothing. Can u help guide me

    Hello members.
    I’d really appreciate your assistance / feedback. I’m a do it yourself kind of person. I know my strong points and weak points.
    that said, I’m not a welder. Not savvy about welding. That said. I want to become a “decent” welder for farm/land use only.
    first project will be oil pipe fencing around our property and animal pens.
    Being I own nothing, can u please guide me to a purchase list.
    Do I need a engine drive? Is the option to weld in AC important due to magnetized pipe? I’m open to any suggestions.
    money is obviously important, but my budget is fairly decent.
    Id like to buy once cry once.
    I appreciate your feedback.
    Thank you much


  • #2
    An engine drive is a huge advantage on a fence line remote from shore power options. But they are a pain if you have to listen to it in the driveway to do a lot of shop welding. They also give you generator power for other needs, which is very useful. You just want to stick weld?

    Comment


    • #3
      At least four angle grinders and as many clamps (of various sizes) as you can get your hands on. “I have too many grinders and clamps....” said no weldor ever.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi mac 702: Thank you. Yes, To start stick welding. However at some point mig also.
        any suggestions what I might need? In regards to machine? Is AC that needed?

        hi RYAN: Thank you. That makes total sense. Definatley great advice? Suggestions of welders?

        Comment


        • #5
          Let's take a slightly different path for a moment. Between drillstem and not knowing how to weld, stem is going to be the bigger problem.
          FIRST, depending on origin, stem may be radioactive in addition to or apart from being magnetic, and plenty of that crap is sold to buyers who don't know better. It ain't a problem you need.

          SECOND, the world class expert on stem fences/ structures/ sculptures and a few other things is Harv Lacey. If it can be done with stem, Harv has done it, and probably documented it on one board or another. He hangs his hat in Texas, and has abundant stem available. Google up Wroughtnharv get a free education beyond compare and start collecting toilet paper and paper towel tubes. It's a lot cheaper and easier to snip paper tubes with bandage scissors while you learn to cut connections. You can even practice in the living room without the wife killin you.

          Third- equipment. Since you don't mention location, or available local gas supplier, I'll go out on a limb and recommend O/P for cutting and buy a decent torch to begin with.
          Right about this point you also want/NEED to accumulate 2 or 3 water can Extinguishers and a good broom for knocking down field fires. Ryan can advise on the broom & water cans.
          Second, get yourself a air/Propane torch like roofers use to both descale and DEMAGNETIZE stem if you run into magnetism.
          You also want a good 2 pound hammer for fine tuning.
          About 8 feet of 2" C channel and 20 feet of manila 3/8 rope will make up into a few rail ponies so add that to the list too and save your back/toes/shins and a lot of swearing.
          Few hundred feet of mason string and a line level will save you hours and hundreds of swear words too.

          Machine- preferably engine driven, anything from LN-8 /Bobcat up to a Pipeliner.
          Be aware of the power output from the machine before you buy. Lincoln SA machines provide DC and only DC and that does NOT play well with variable speed electric tools.

          Downline, look into a suitcase wire feeder and cover the face of the earth with fence.

          When you get the fence in place, knock the rust scabs off and use a mitt to swab the rails & posts with 5% Phosphoric Acid in water. Do this at sunset so the acid has time to work with the dew overnight. Around Noon the following day do the Tom Sawyer dance and have somebody apply paint to the completed fence.

          Found Harv's site
          https://harveylacey.com/id87.htm
          Last edited by Franz©; 11-04-2019, 05:30 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hello FRANZ:
            thank you for your detail. I’m a member of other forums on other topics and understand the frustration of the always newbie popping in. So thank you.

            going through your reply:

            my origin: California (coast...hour north of Santa Barbara).
            pipe origin: purchased from local pipe supply company. Nothing in CA is cheap. But is 39 per 30ft length of 2 3/8 and 49 per 30ft length of 2 7/8. Respectable supplier. However origin is unknown if actual pipe.
            wroughtironharv: I’ve googled him. Nothing showed. I’ll try the link you provided and search on here. My gatherings is he’s THE EXPERT on this. Thank you for your insight.
            torch: I don’t know what an OP is. In regards to my thought was a gas cutting torch. Plasma way down the road for maybe finer type applications. We have praxair for supplier.
            air/propane torch: So does this by heating demagnetize. Thus leading for only DC WELDING? No AC needed then?
            I have a tractor with grapple so that should assist in the back breaking portion (I sure hope so)
            in regards to machine: Is AC/DC ALL THAT IMPORTANT? or a dc only machine okay? Which machine to buy?
            the last part about applying PA? Is that necessary if I don’t want a painted fence. Round these parts it’s 99% oil pipe rusted look. They say it lasts a 100 years. Was even going to run sprinkler guns off the top rails for pastures.
            thank you again for all your inout

            Comment


            • #7
              Cityslickergonecountry,
              First off, I appreciate the radioactive aspect of Franz's response. Used to manufacture panels and the first thing we did when a truck came in was grab the Geiger Counter. Secondly, I have never, ever had a problem welding drill stem pipe with SMAW DC- or MIG. All about your preparation. As far as a machine, might as well get a generator/welder. You've got a stick welder, a power source for a MIG, and back up power. If your budget is solid and you don't like listening to a generator in the driveway, find a good deal on a MIG and wire 240 into your garage.
              The main thing is not to panic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cityslickergonecountry View Post
                Hello FRANZ:
                thank you for your detail. I’m a member of other forums on other topics and understand the frustration of the always newbie popping in. So thank you.

                going through your reply:

                my origin: California (coast...hour north of Santa Barbara).
                pipe origin: purchased from local pipe supply company. Nothing in CA is cheap. But is 39 per 30ft length of 2 3/8 and 49 per 30ft length of 2 7/8. Respectable supplier. However origin is unknown if actual pipe.

                wroughtironharv: I’ve googled him. Nothing showed. I’ll try the link you provided and search on here. My gatherings is he’s THE EXPERT on this. Thank you for your insight.
                You stuck a few too many letters in. "Wroughtnharv " will get you more hits than you can count. To my understanding he is also on Facebook.

                torch: I don’t know what an OP is. In regards to my thought was a gas cutting torch. Plasma way down the road for maybe finer type applications. We have praxair for supplier.

                O/P is Oxy Propane, good for cutting rusty material, superior to Oxy/Acetylene which will pop and blow back with rust present.
                I do STRONGLY suggest insisting whoever you buy from teaches you hands on how to cut with O/P. Fortunately you won't have bad habits to break. Buy a good torch to begin with and you'll avoid lots of frustration. Harris, Victor and even Smith are quality torches. A salesman worthy of his job should demonstrate the advantages of 90° and 75° torch heads in the buying process..
                You may spend a little more buying from a REAL welding supplier up front, but the value of the relationship over 10 years will be more than worth it.



                air/propane torch: So does this by heating demagnetize. Thus leading for only DC WELDING? No AC needed then?
                If you have a magnet and an IR thermometer conduct yourself a little learning session. Steel looses magnetic properties at temperatures above a few hundred degrees. Blacksmiths refer to it as nonmagnetic temperature and use it as a quick test in heat treating. Heat kills magnetism. On the other side of the coin, magnetism kills arc control.
                It's all information you need to become aware of if you want to arc weld, and you'll be best served by learning rather than just reading.. I got better than 50 years of holding the end of rods that says AC AIN'T gonna be much help arc welding magnetized steel. In some situations it might help, but not when you're fighting arc blow on heavy weldments, and stem is heavy material.


                I have a tractor with grapple so that should assist in the back breaking portion (I sure hope so)

                in regards to machine: Is AC/DC ALL THAT IMPORTANT? or a dc only machine okay? Which machine to buy?

                My first machine was AC only, a Lincoln toumbstone. It served me well to the degree I was comfortable welding overhead with it. When the money let a DC machine come to work I fell in love with the ease of DC. DC is easier, and will spoil you. Either works, and it's a matter of which makes you happiest. Whatever you do will probably be against some Regulation in Califooledya in a month at most. Spend some time with local welding suppliers and test drive unless you know somebody who will let you play with their toys.
                Remember, the weld is NOT in the machine, it's in the man behind the mask.


                the last part about applying PA? Is that necessary if I don’t want a painted fence. Round these parts it’s 99% oil pipe rusted look. They say it lasts a 100 years. Was even going to run sprinkler guns off the top rails for pastures.
                thank you again for all your inout
                Nope, Paint ain't necessary, fact is it scares some on this board. You want rusty looking and you got 3 weeks when it ain't going to rain and wash off your coating, swab that rusty stem with some Linseed oil, preferably raw but boiled will work. It drys real slow, but it looks decent when dry. Figure on recoat every 10 years.

                Far as running water thru stem to a sprinkler, you might want to consider what size PVC will fit inside that stem unless you are changing your job to gun unplugger.

                PS: figure on some learning time.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                  Let's take a slightly different path for a moment. Between drillstem and not knowing how to weld, stem is going to be the bigger problem.
                  FIRST, depending on origin, stem may be radioactive in addition to or apart from being magnetic, and plenty of that crap is sold to buyers who don't know better. It ain't a problem you need.

                  SECOND, the world class expert on stem fences/ structures/ sculptures and a few other things is Harv Lacey. If it can be done with stem, Harv has done it, and probably documented it on one board or another. He hangs his hat in Texas, and has abundant stem available. Google up Wroughtnharv get a free education beyond compare and start collecting toilet paper and paper towel tubes. It's a lot cheaper and easier to snip paper tubes with bandage scissors while you learn to cut connections. You can even practice in the living room without the wife killin you.

                  Third- equipment. Since you don't mention location, or available local gas supplier, I'll go out on a limb and recommend O/P for cutting and buy a decent torch to begin with.
                  Right about this point you also want/NEED to accumulate 2 or 3 water can Extinguishers and a good broom for knocking down field fires. Ryan can advise on the broom & water cans.
                  Second, get yourself a air/Propane torch like roofers use to both descale and DEMAGNETIZE stem if you run into magnetism.
                  You also want a good 2 pound hammer for fine tuning.
                  About 8 feet of 2" C channel and 20 feet of manila 3/8 rope will make up into a few rail ponies so add that to the list too and save your back/toes/shins and a lot of swearing.
                  Few hundred feet of mason string and a line level will save you hours and hundreds of swear words too.

                  Machine- preferably engine driven, anything from LN-8 /Bobcat up to a Pipeliner.
                  Be aware of the power output from the machine before you buy. Lincoln SA machines provide DC and only DC and that does NOT play well with variable speed electric tools.

                  Downline, look into a suitcase wire feeder and cover the face of the earth with fence.

                  When you get the fence in place, knock the rust scabs off and use a mitt to swab the rails & posts with 5% Phosphoric Acid in water. Do this at sunset so the acid has time to work with the dew overnight. Around Noon the following day do the Tom Sawyer dance and have somebody apply paint to the completed fence.

                  Found Harv's site
                  https://harveylacey.com/id87.htm
                  Franz, I can't get pictures on Harv's website to post, whats ups with that? Do I need a certain browser to see them? Thanks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Good stuff, Franz!

                    (One note: Steel non-magnetic temperature is generally around cherry red...)
                    Last edited by Helios; 11-05-2019, 06:27 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ANY metal capable of being magnetized has what's called a Curie temperature (named after Madame Curie, who supposedly discovered that property)
                      https://www.google.com/search?client...ature+of+steel

                      To add to the already thorough help you've already gotten, you may wanna add a rosebud to your O/P setup (and a few extra Oxy bottles to keep up with the Propane) -
                      You might also wanna get an IR thermometer to know if you've reached Curie temp; if so, do NOT bother with a $30 one, they don't go high enough to do any good with welding/forging, etc - I have a few of the HF ones for other stuff, but the only one they offer that'll work for higher temps is this
                      https://www.harborfreight.com/201-in...rms-64847.html
                      I've compared their cheapies to my Fluke and they're all within a couple degrees, but I've NOT used the one I linked.

                      If you're gonna be building fence IN PLACE, it might be easier (and cheaper on gas) if you tack first, then demagnetize just near your weld joints - (which is why I mentioned the rosebud) - the IR gun would let you know better than "cherry red", especially in full sun.

                      Also, if you're as new to this as you said, AND you plan to weld IN PLACE, you're gonna want to practice with your new welder while you're standing on your head and welding upside down (OOP in "weldor-ese")

                      All I got; I know a little about metals/welding, but never lived in oil country or worked with drill stem... Steve

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dakota Ironworks View Post
                        Cityslickergonecountry,
                        First off, I appreciate the radioactive aspect of Franz's response. Used to manufacture panels and the first thing we did when a truck came in was grab the Geiger Counter. Secondly, I have never, ever had a problem welding drill stem pipe with SMAW DC- or MIG. All about your preparation. As far as a machine, might as well get a generator/welder. You've got a stick welder, a power source for a MIG, and back up power. If your budget is solid and you don't like listening to a generator in the driveway, find a good deal on a MIG and wire 240 into your garage.
                        hi Dakota:
                        I will in the upcoming months (either after xmas or right after tax time) be building a shop. I will def run 220. However at this point, god blessed with a wife who tolerates me, a TON of kids that think i walk on water, but he didn’t give me a garage. Fair trade id say!!!
                        anyhow, i agree with the engine drive welder. Any experience with a particular one? Thanks again

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hello FRANZ:
                          thank you. Appreciate the tip on the torch. I will 100% be taking that advice. I have a good local shop I can share this information with and ask. For their guidance.
                          In regards to heat treatment altering magnitization: Great news. And also alters the welder id need to purchase if that’s a fairly easy task meaning AC isn’t as important as I had thought.
                          Linseed oil: I would have never thought!
                          I plan on either paying an instructor to come on site and get me started with some basic knowledge (safety and tips on quality) or attending a short weekend class. I understand neither of those makes me a welder of any sort. But with time as you said, hopefully I’ll be the man behind the mask that doesn’t suck. I’ll take that as a success

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BukitCase View Post
                            ANY metal capable of being magnetized has what's called a Curie temperature (named after Madame Curie, who supposedly discovered that property)
                            https://www.google.com/search?client...ature+of+steel

                            To add to the already thorough help you've already gotten, you may wanna add a rosebud to your O/P setup (and a few extra Oxy bottles to keep up with the Propane) -
                            You might also wanna get an IR thermometer to know if you've reached Curie temp; if so, do NOT bother with a $30 one, they don't go high enough to do any good with welding/forging, etc - I have a few of the HF ones for other stuff, but the only one they offer that'll work for higher temps is this
                            https://www.harborfreight.com/201-in...rms-64847.html
                            I've compared their cheapies to my Fluke and they're all within a couple degrees, but I've NOT used the one I linked.

                            If you're gonna be building fence IN PLACE, it might be easier (and cheaper on gas) if you tack first, then demagnetize just near your weld joints - (which is why I mentioned the rosebud) - the IR gun would let you know better than "cherry red", especially in full sun.

                            Also, if you're as new to this as you said, AND you plan to weld IN PLACE, you're gonna want to practice with your new welder while you're standing on your head and welding upside down (OOP in "weldor-ese")

                            All I got; I know a little about metals/welding, but never lived in oil country or worked with drill stem... Steve
                            Thank you much. Well, I wish I was joking about being a complete novice, however a truer statement has never been said. My username is what my wife and I joke about: because it’s so true. When I got my tractor she said after watching me for a few minutes “isnt their a class you could take or something to help”. Anyhow, 300 hours later and I’m capabale (but would not consider myself an operator).
                            I think the same applies to how I’ll approach welding. I believe I will use a few lengths of pipe and practice and practice and practice. As you mentioned at different angles / positions until I feel comfortable enough to not mangle a good fence.
                            thakn you for advice on the equipment. I will be researching what you mentioned also.

                            is there a particular machine you might suggest? Is the “base model” bobcat 225 sufficient for my duties?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tack, some of Harv's site crapped out when the man running the site assumed room temperature, and Harv and I share the brilliance of not being able to do diddle with sites we put information into years back, because we don't have Passwords and the guy who did is gone.
                              A little looking around last night indicates back in his posting days Harv left a good deal of 411 on both WoosieWeb and Tractorbynet.

                              Looks like Harv sort of retired from active posting around 2012 and shifted his work to helping Haitian storm survivors get back on their feet with his plastic bottle & jug blocks & machine. Also looks like somebody with more education than brains decided Harv's blocks in place couldn't possibly be working.


                              OP, Upon consideration I'll not get off the dime and recommend a machine for you. I'm not impressed by the current offerings of any manufacturer to recommend the products. Too many unnecessary PC cards and components and not enough welder.
                              Given your location which may soon have utility provided electric similar to the system in PortoRico or N Korea and given you own a tractor I would throw a PTO genset into the selection group and ponder going directly to a welder capable of flux core wire.
                              You have the blessing at this point of not owning a machine you have to work with and around.

                              Small engine drives such as Bobcat or Trailblazer on the blue side of the line and the LN series on the red side all spin at 3600rpm, and that alone makes them a bad investment in my book.

                              Comment

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