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Shall we talk about solenoids?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by jjohn76 View Post
    It might be worth testing the voltage across the solenoid leads before replacing it, just to confirm the voltage goes to 24V when the trigger is depressed and returns to 0V after the prescribed post flow.

    Edit- looking at the technical manual, you shouldn't be seeing 24V at the leads. That should be 120V AC or off, which matches the relay.
    John, I got a buck says it would take at least 12 volts DC to partly hold that valve open. Relay contacts may be arced to helenback for want of a spike suppression diode on the valve coil that would have cost 2 more cents in manufacture.

    My hunch is "engineered" to the hot crap it worked standard and shipped. Worked leaving the factory don't mean it will work 10 years later, especially if the machine is used for something other than man cave decoration.

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    • #17
      I only assumed it was 24 V because of the trigger from the fan I’m on the run right now so I’ll update when I get back. I posted earlier on the side of the relay which confirmed it was not 24 V

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      • #18
        Tracking, that main circuit board still pulls 120V from the fan transformer center tap to use for at least the gas solenoid. I drew the schematic for it somewhere on here. Anyways, my sticky solenoid ended up as a sticky relay on the board. There was a leaky transistor (Q12 or Q13, can't remember which) giving the relay just enough holding power once it was actuated, and a tap could sometimes get it to open again. It was showing some interesting voltages too, which is why I was curious when you mentioned the 24V. It probably isn't your issue, but may be worth the quick check just in case.
        Last edited by jjohn76; 10-20-2019, 03:27 PM.

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        • #19
          Seems we jumped past, stepped around all the discussing and back to let's just find a cheap replacement? What happened to foreplay?
          But that was what you did ask for. Try Digi-Key? 800-858-3613 Thief River Falls MN. I'm told it's a really nice place.
          Forgive me for saying so, but
          Carbonic Acid erosion...Not that I would, but did you ever think to ask Franz, why he thought that?


          https://www.tlv.com/global/TI/steam-...g-erosion.html

          I googled it and did some reading. Admittedly the mention of Carbonic Acid Erosion was two floors above me.
          Not sold on it as the culprit behind it knowing a bit of dust and grit from not cracking a cylinder in practice before attaching a flowmeter could yield a similar effect in time maybe. Or a hose end dropped picked up a flake of dust? And CO2 even blended with Argon is shall we say, less pure?
          You mentioned 2 weeks, I'm thinking out loud. Maybe you own 6 dogs all short hairs who shed and were your loving companions on the past installation?

          The
          things you did... Remember you have an implied duty to also contribute. The village mentality of helping others. Some poor average Joe reader is wondering, how the heck did he check all that? Better then average chance it will be due to a dish washer repair or a washing machine, but just the same or close don't you think?

          I don't think carb cleaner was your best choice for dissolving what might be hindering the plungers movement. But maybe it was? When you buy the replacement, do share where the deal was found. And if you choose to disect this one for a close inspection, post some more pictures.








          Last edited by Noel; 10-20-2019, 03:23 PM. Reason: I don't need a new key board, but a good cleaning might free up the keys.

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          • #20
            The miller one is 120v all the replacements that are nearly identical are 220v. If my relay would slide over the body of the solenoid, i could likely reuse the relay portion, but I’m sure it wouldn’t fit. That’s too easy.
            Attached Files

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            • #21
              This might be an Amazon option. It's 1/4", which I think would be good. The 3/8" ones look like they pull a little too much power (24 VA)

              https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...N_MWELSX6ki8Vo

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              • #22
                So what happened to the "O" ring? Is it stuck in the body housing the coil? And with what was mentioned in post #18, the plot thickens and the drama unfolds.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by jjohn76 View Post
                  This might be an Amazon option. It's 1/4", which I think would be good. The 3/8" ones look like they pull a little too much power (24 VA)

                  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...N_MWELSX6ki8Vo
                  I’ve seen a few of those style, but don’t really want to re-pipe it with a bunch of fittings. The one i posted really looks identical to mine, but if that shaft isn’t the same size it’s a waste as a direct replacement. It would make for a fun project though..... I’d wire the gun trigger to a timed relay so i could burp it for 5 seconds of pre-flow to clear the gun and get 5 seconds of post flow. The preflow is something I’ve wanted for a long time. Put direct 220 on the relay.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Noel View Post
                    So what happened to the "O" ring? Is it stuck in the body housing the coil? And with what was mentioned in post #18, the plot thickens and the drama unfolds.
                    As stated it’s a metal to metal brass fitting. Probably for longevity.

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                    • #25
                      Noel look at this picture.
                      https://forum.millerwelds.com/filedata/fetch?id=603588
                      What do you see staring down the gas path?

                      You ever looked at a carb that's been near a fire put out with a Co2 bottle about 3 days after the fire? Notice similarity?

                      While this is an entertaining exercize in wordsmithing, the OP flat refuses to be of any help in solving the problem. I will not repeat my request to him.
                      I'm now leaning toward thinking he will scrap the machine as unfixable after chasing squirrels thru the nutgrove.

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                      • #26
                        I remember Jon's previous post. That made sense to me. And what you mentioned, I get that as well. I admit my mind isn't fully on the topic and I was a bit confused as I tried to imagine the cut away view and how it should with my limited knowledge about such things, work, and why it was a leaker?

                        Now with doing another read, picking up on what I seemingly missed in following the conversation, further enlarging review of the pictures, I have a confession to make.

                        I have a shielding gas leak in the system hooked up to my HH135. I have the cheap regulator flow meter as a problem leak. As you mention, poor quality control in manufacture and assembly. One minute and thirty five seconds drains the line. I set up, crack and open the cylinder, weld, shut down. Confession over.

                        I concede point.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        But we need a few more answers from our friend to be sure. Like squeezing grapes one at a time. We'll either make wine or give up and buy a bottle.

                        I'm no expert on these things, but I took apart one from my dishwasher so I'm dangerous. I get the basic principle of operation I think? And your explanation I'm seeing it. Does look pitted doesn't it? Almost tooth decay I'd say supporting that theory. I can see why that little plunger could not only be harder to pull but as well fail to seal when closed. Mine didn't want to open. It did when I got thru with it. But the new one worked better.

                        I'd also think with a slight encompassing of a leak test solution around the point of connection between the metal and brass we would know for sure if the "O" ring sealed or leaked, as well whether or not the gas was just leaking past the end of the pintle from it not full seating when closed?

                        I also found reading about Carbonic Acid Erosion quite interesting.

                        "
                        Corrosive elements such as carbonic acid that can be associated with low temperature condensate"

                        I did ask about the gas being used...lol. I hope he cuts it in sections and takes close up pictures.




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