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Using water submersion to keep work cool/straight.

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  • #31
    The confusion surrounding this discussion stems from a lack of consideration for the metal, how it reacts, what it takes to get it too react, and then when it does, what we don't see, but must assume takes place. Expansion, contraction and internal stress. Grain growth and transformation in the HAZ.

    If you took a bar and clamped it in a vise with a short extension, heated that extended end up red hot, it will expand freely in all directions, contract freely, and when cooled remain almost un changed. But if you extend the length further, heated it up in the middle away from the end, the weight of the extended bar now adds to the effect of changes with the bar possibly bending from the extended weight being applied when heated enough that a transition temperature is reached. Or enough time passes that it bends with age and elastic strain.

    Springs keep getting mentioned. That spring has to get hot enough to reach a transition temperature or it won't change, won't lose temper. When welding close to a spring, how much heat will conduct into it, and will it get hot enough to reach transition is the question? Getting hot doesn't necessarily change it.

    So, like grilling a hot dog with high heat, you could burn the outside to a crisp but the inside will remain a raw dog for the most part. It hasn't got hot enough to transition. Could explain why in the pictures I posted those wieners look different?

    In my seemingly critical fashion I suggested the GTAW picture posted imaged a very melted and hot weld deposit. It did. In the realm of this discussion, was it a water bath that was need or more control over the welding process? One did compensate for the other to a successful happy ending so maybe it doesn't matter? In some circles however it does.

    Helios additional questions raises the discussion bar that speaks to the crowd that discusses this stuff and with it some very good points to be addressed that only further testing will answer abut the changes to micro structure in the HAZ and the shape it takes toward affecting mechanical properties. But assumptions can be made.

    https://www.tec-science.com/material...ing-processes/











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    • #32
      Originally posted by Helios View Post

      I've thought about doing that myself, but always wondered whether you'd get a stress riser at the "wet line" between metal that's limited to 212°F (you can't heat water hotter than 212°F unless it's under pressure) and metal that's probably 1500°F or higher (and 2500°F at the weld)...my idea for a kludge was to submerge the part in a mixture of water and wet sand, so that there would be a bit more of a temperature gradient between the 212°F and much higher.

      Also, if welding close to the "wet line" I wondered whether you might get cracking/stress microfractures between the outer shell of the metal (212°F) and the inner molten core...

      Never tried it, though, so I can't offer any more than theories.
      I like your theories--I had some of the same thoughts, but absolutely no way to tell if they're true or not. Never thought about the wet sand to try to prevent it, though.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by tackit View Post
        I'm finding my beads lay flatter when the worlds obliquity is @ 24.5 degrees rather than the present 23.4 degrees, it also seems metals do not hump and distort as much due to heat when filler metals are cooled down to 0 degrees F and Kosher Welding Hotdogs™ are staggered one side to the other along a weld seam...
        Tack, you are obviously a man of great learning and experience!

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        • #34
          If you don't want to have a negative affect on a piece of metal, don't weld on it. . If you want to make a repair by means of welding then you do what you gotta do to minimize the negative affects to all of the various piece parts associated with that particular item to be repaired. All of 'those' things may include paint & rubber & plastics & whatever.

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          • #35
            Roger that.

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            • #36
              Noel, my calender says 7 September, and frankly I'm a bit concerned aboot you up there in the coldzone.
              You should already have your ear flaps in the down position to both protect ears from frostbite and the onboard computer from overexposure of the heat sink to the cruel Canadian Winter.

              You didn't even scientifically note the temperature of the water surrounding that weiner before lowering the victim weiner into the bath. That right there can introduce an error factor into the entire test and require repeating that individual test.

              And don't forget to add salt to the water to both increase the boil point and flavor the weiner. Mom always added salt, especially when hard boiling eggs.
              Probably ought to factor in altitude too, what's your elevation above sea level?

              ​​​​​​​

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Aeronca41 View Post

                Tack, you are obviously a man of great learning and experience!
                Not really 41, I snuck into area 51's welding laboratory many moons ago hidden in a load of Kosher weiners, once inside, I found a new pair of area 51 coveralls and put them on and started walking to where all the bright light was coming from, when I got there, I saw a room filled with Miller welding equipment, robots an alien welders dressed in Miller welding coveralls....in between flashes I could see aliens placing Kosher hot dogs on a new flying soccer's skin, so I asked one of the alien welders what do the Kosher hotdogs do? .when Immediately a digital screen on his forehead came on and read, "they stop what is called "Noel metal distortion."

                Anyway, dressed in my area 51 coveralls I walked up to the alien foreman and asked what temperature they store their filler metal at, when a digital screen on "his" forehead immediately came on and read, "we have found 250 degrees Martian seems to work best." Miller's welding representative who was standing by us nodded his head up and down so I took it for gospel and made my way to Area 51s famous Franz Zero-Gravity Dougnut Shop ® and got a cup of zero gravity coffee and a doughnut to go.... and headed out to my friend Art Bell's car waiting for me in the lizard peoples parking lot. Thems were the best days I tell ya..
                Last edited by tackit; 09-07-2019, 03:04 PM.

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                • #38
                  So, it's true, you DO have vast learning and experience!

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                  • #39
                    Been meaning to contact you about that coffee shop thing Tack.
                    Your barista Glonk, a female Klingon has filed a complaint you threw a 3 in the tip jar and took out 5 7s as change for the 3.
                    And your comment about Glonk's short legs and lower body were overheard.
                    Glonk doesn't move a lot because she has a reach of 17' 2" with either claw, and a bit of tood about being tossed from the intergalactic BB team for dunking everything she got a claw on.
                    Having seen Glonk you undoubtedly understand why Klingon males are such fierce warriors. They don't want to go home to their assigned domestic partners.

                    Thanks for stopping by Franz Zero-Gravity Dougnut Shop ® on your trip, hope you enjoyed your 6½ doughnuts but don't try the baker's dozen stunt again on half a dozen. I ought to bill you for cleaning costs on that machine. How'd you like your tripleshotdouble late frapuchino. Glonk whips those out nicely.

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                    • #40
                      ...It's gotta be something in the water up there where Franz and Tack live!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Aeronca41 View Post
                        ...It's gotta be something in the water up there where Franz and Tack live!
                        As I recall you're a little over an hour from me.
                        I sure ain't drinkin the Estrogen laced recycled sewage they call public water up here by Sewer Ontario, can't say what Tack's sipping.
                        Be mass panic in the streets if people knew what's in Public Water.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Franz© View Post

                          As I recall you're a little over an hour from me.
                          I sure ain't drinkin the Estrogen laced recycled sewage they call public water up here by Sewer Ontario, can't say what Tack's sipping.
                          Be mass panic in the streets if people knew what's in Public Water.
                          I hear that! I don't drink what comes from the city tap either. Haven't for years. I do use it to quench hot metal on occasion, but have say I've never tried some of the methods in this thread. Or cooked hot dogs in it.

                          This has been some interesting stuff, and has triggered a memory of my dad's instruction when I was about 10 years old and started working with hot metal--"never hold a length of metal with the other end hot with bare hands and stick the hot end in a bucket of cold water-the heat will travel up and burn you", he said. I didn't believe him; just didn't seem sensible to me. so he told me to go try it. I got a pice of round bar stock a little over an inch in diameter probably about a foot and a half long from the scrap pile, heated about 2" of the end of it to a nice bright orange with the OA torch, took off my glove, and stuck the hot end in a bucket of cold water. Wow! Dramatic and lasting lesson learned. That was over 60 years ago, and I can still remember the exact spot I was standing when I did it. The speed with which it got way too hot to hold really impressed me! Never doubted him again.

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                          • #43
                            Not sure where your tap water comes from, might be Erie. We take that and add truckloads of crap to it both coming over Niagara Falls and upstream before shipping it to Montreal where they got more girrlymen than they can count. Of course the Estrogen load has given us 2 new industries, boys who act like girls and girls who can't get pregnant and haul money to "Doctors".
                            You might have heard of our brilliant "fast ferry" to Toronto a few years back, the Edmond FitzJohnson with the aluminum hull that quickly learned it didn't dare travel fast on Sewer Ontario due to semi submerged trees. We upgraded since getting rid of Edmund which still doesn't run well, and now we have floating islands of vegetation and debris.
                            We also have considerably increased surface area of the Sewer and have semi submersible Sewerside "homes". The power plants at Massena love it.

                            I really think we should introduce Sous vide into this test in progress. I can envision Tack feverishly converting his pressure pump to the job.
                            Perhaps combine Sous vide with marinate.

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                            • #44
                              I'm going to say, this was a dumb idea. I'm also going to say that when I get involved in a dumb idea, I do it so not to make a mess. Lucky me I didn't.

                              Tacked these bad boys up and close enough to 90 degrees, uniform gap and numbered them one, two three.
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                              This was about distortion.

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ID:	601846 This was the bath. In this picture I had removed the ground clamp, but just finished welding. All in one go no stops, although the weld was a sputter/burp and fart along progression, the short circuits sucked so bad, I was beginning to think it was me not the steam screwing with the arc.

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ID:	601847 Underneigth this is a couple 1/4" x 1" x 6" Aluminum coupons and the #1 coupon to help shore it up. But it was welded on top of the Aluminum.

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ID:	601848 This one was like the others for start go and end, but left to freely decide.

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                              • #45
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ID:	601853Now after all this, if you still think welding in a water bath is going to control distortion you are wrong. It doesn't. Call it a fail. That coupon if you look closely in picture #1 on the bottom, #2, far right , it took a twist.




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