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Using water submersion to keep work cool/straight.

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  • #16
    I agree that heat input is more a function of travel speed than welder settings. This is particularly clear when tig welding.

    I am a believer in the aluminum chill bars, especially on aluminum. I have never used such a setup when mig welding, only when tig welding.

    There are other things to do to reduce distortion, but not much else that would effect the test coupons in the manner you have laid out other than the stitching or maybe back stepping.

    Man, I have made some enormous screwups with weld sequencing and long welds causing me some serious distortion problems, even in steel up to 5/8”. On at least two occasions I had to completely cut the job apart and make repairs, then reweld it and grind 70 lbs of steel off to make up for my mistakes. I generally like to leave my welds unground because I try to make them look good, but it’s hard to explain to the customer why there’s a four foot weld going down the middle of a 4’x4’ steel plate for no good reason.

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    • #17
      In a welding environment, a water bath is not just impractical, it's bordering the thin line of being an unsafe work practice. Doesn't the mention of it make you want to stand back and see what happen next anyways?

      To prove a moot point under the heading of science or bolster my thoughts right or wrong, I'm on this. I don't mind going thru a bit of effort for the team. This experiment is kind of like throwing a hot dog under a burner to see which way it curls from the heat? And discovering if placing it i a bath of water while under the heat would prevent the curl?

      I might try both just because I like hotdogs. Give me a day and I'll post my results.

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      • #18
        When you put a weld in your adding molten metal. As that metal cools it shrinks / contracts and thats why things distort. Its the pulling action from the weld. I dont see how surrounding it in water is going to do much. You need to either fit the parts so that when it cools it then pulls into the correct place or use mechanical fastening methods to hold it in place. In fact your probably better preheating the crap out of the whole thing from a distortion point of view. That puts the whole workpiece into more of an equilibrium with the hot weld metal. That's why you do that with cast iron. Your trying to limit the pulling action of the weld which then just causes the cast to break since its less ductile then the weld.
        www.silvercreekwelding.com

        Miller Trailblazer 325 efi
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        Thermal arc 186 ac/dc
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        • #19
          If you've ever done sheet metal welding, you'll know why it would make a difference.

          You can weld a sheet and the entire length of it can start to warp and there's not a **** thing you can do to make if flat and perfect again.

          I don't think the Op was saying it would necessarily remove any and all warping but at least minimize it by preventing any other section of it, mainly what's submerged from warping.

          Water ain't that big of a deal the gas will keep most of it away and if it really gets too hot or boils too much, just change the water out, I think water would act much, much better as a conductor of heat than aluminum would.

          If you were to do an assembly of let's say an 1/8" stainless sheet metal box, with 4 seams on every side, tack it all together every 1" or so and then submerge the box and leave out one corner to weld, I would be curious to see what would happen, hopefully you can get all the water out of it, lol.
          if there's a welder, there's a way

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          • #20
            I watched the video at 3:20. You'd be better off putting the whole thing into an oven and then welding it in my opinion.
            www.silvercreekwelding.com

            Miller Trailblazer 325 efi
            Miller extreme 12vs
            Thermal arc 186 ac/dc
            Lincoln power wave 455m/stt with 10m dual feeder

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            • #21
              How about this product, it says it works for Mig Tig and Arc Welding. I wonder, do they weld America's space capsules underwater? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Viper-Wetra...-/383040781851

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              • #22
                I’ve used similar stuff. Can’t speak for the distortion reduction, but it’s like a speed bump for heat transfer away from the weld area. I think it’s used more often when working with small diameter pipe, either soldered or welded.

                I keep a spray bottle of water around for welding stainless. Make a short weld, spray down the sheet with water. It does help keep the distortion down. Of course the source of the distortion is the weld area, but as that heat spreads out away from the weld, that metal around it expands as well. And since it’s not as hot as it is closer to the weld, it cools faster, sometimes resulting in permanent deformation. This is why short welds and cooling periods help keep the distortion to a minimum. Anything you can do to reduce the heat input into the surrounding material will help reduce distortion.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by tackit View Post
                  How about this product, it says it works for Mig Tig and Arc Welding. I wonder, do they weld America's space capsules underwater? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Viper-Wetra...-/383040781851
                  I doubt it. It's not rocket science it's mad science. But I'm looking forward to some all beef wieners in the name of that mad science..

                  Edited addition- Back in the days of asbestos, you could buy a bag and make your own. While I can't speak for that product, I have tried a similar one, on my hand and a fanning by with a oxy/acetylene flame. Stuff does work as a barrier.
                  Last edited by Noel; 09-06-2019, 07:40 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Click image for larger version

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ID:	601738 Two all beef wieners. Fresh from the freezer. One sitting on a Aluminum backing, the other in a water bath. No preheat to the oven.

                    Click image for larger version

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ID:	601739About 2 minutes into the experiment.

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ID:	601740About 5 minutes in, somethings happening here.

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ID:	601741 I'm thinking this was around the 10 minute mark.
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ID:	601742This shot shows the back of the wiener. Notice a bit of a stripe, a heat sink stripe? Now, the wieners did cook differently. More on that in a bit.
                    So while the wiener resting on the Aluminum had at some pointt rolled off, It still had a stripe. I'm thinking with this experiment, a conclusion could be drawn that a wiener in water, doesn't cook as uniformly.

                    Which one distorted more? Which had free expansion? The water bath wiener was crusty on the outside, not as plump or juicy. And I'm running out of mustard. The more a bit later part. I only had the broiler going. Altering the height and duration of the heat source, a larger aluminum strip, less water, all would have altered the out come or the cooked condition. Grain structure and grain growth of the wiener if you will. It oboviously exceeded the elastic limit of the casing while the other just got crusty. All in the name of science, draw your own conclusions.

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                    • #25
                      FLAG on the play (CFL style)

                      Experiment is ruled invalid due to lack of proper thermal imaging during the heating cycle.

                      Drop them weiners down your neck and redo the experiment
                      Ram a 1/8 brass rod clear thru a 3rd weiner and see if it heats faster from the brass rod heat source.
                      Shoot complete thermals all the way.

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                      • #26
                        Noel did you get into some of that legal weed? Comparing weiners and welding distortion. Wtf!? But seriously if you want to weld that "reciever" tube thing in the video water isnt going to do much. Either have 4 welders simultaneously welding all 4 sides at the same time or heat the the crap out of it in an oven. Heat isnt the enemy, localized heat is
                        www.silvercreekwelding.com

                        Miller Trailblazer 325 efi
                        Miller extreme 12vs
                        Thermal arc 186 ac/dc
                        Lincoln power wave 455m/stt with 10m dual feeder

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Willvis View Post
                          Noel did you get into some of that legal weed? Comparing weiners and welding distortion. Wtf!? But seriously if you want to weld that "reciever" tube thing in the video water isnt going to do much. Either have 4 welders simultaneously welding all 4 sides at the same time or heat the the crap out of it in an oven. Heat isnt the enemy, localized heat is

                          If you think weed had something to do with this you best try smoking some to see what it does? Lol. Nah, it's my regular crazy ways.

                          But if you review my early posting, "
                          This experiment is kind of like throwing a hot dog under a burner to see which way it curls from the heat?".
                          T
                          his is about conducting heat away from something. Prove or disprove. Practicality has little to do with it. Is it educational? Maybe?

                          And even if you had four friends willing to try, one will weld hotter, one colder, one with a longer arc one shorter arc, what's the results going to be?

                          My Post #6 "
                          With heat comes expansion, contraction comes with cooling. Limit the heat, limit the expansion, that limits contraction."

                          If we can bring out some deeper boring science and engineering factors and formulas ( above my pay grade) in simple explanation I'm all for it. Or we can have fun and roast a wiener, which by the way did lead to distortion.

                          Franz however is correct, not very scientific. I need to wait a few days before I eat another dog. But I might try it again and take temperature reading, as well measuring the volume of water and aluminum.

                          This water and Aluminum...

                          "
                          Aluminum = 0.90 kJ/(kg C)
                          Liquid Water = 4.20 kJ/(kg C)
                          Changing liquid water into steam at atmospheric pressure = 2257 kJ/(kg C)"

                          Let's ask what that really means? That would be a good first question wouldn't you think?

                          Conclusions can be drawn loosely to some degree on that basis alone. But it fails to account for other factors. It's those other factors that limit the value in practicality of welding that receiver tube or other weldments in a bath of water. But again, why not?

                          And no, I'm not welding a receiver tube. I buy HSS in different wall thicknesses for a reason.

                          But I will satisfy my curiosity further ( maybe that of a few others) with a couple of plates and a bit of welding. A simple visual inspection can tell us something about the conduction and convection of heat with an effect on cooling and distortion. I think so, so why not?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Fix Until Broke View Post
                            I've done this kind of thing a few times ...
                            I've thought about doing that myself, but always wondered whether you'd get a stress riser at the "wet line" between metal that's limited to 212°F (you can't heat water hotter than 212°F unless it's under pressure) and metal that's probably 1500°F or higher (and 2500°F at the weld)...my idea for a kludge was to submerge the part in a mixture of water and wet sand, so that there would be a bit more of a temperature gradient between the 212°F and much higher.

                            Also, if welding close to the "wet line" I wondered whether you might get cracking/stress microfractures between the outer shell of the metal (212°F) and the inner molten core...

                            Never tried it, though, so I can't offer any more than theories.
                            Last edited by Helios; 09-07-2019, 08:07 AM.

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                            • #29
                              I'm finding my beads lay flatter when the worlds obliquity is @ 24.5 degrees rather than the present 23.4 degrees, it also seems metals do not hump and distort as much due to heat when filler metals are cooled down to 0 degrees F and Kosher Welding Hotdogs™ are staggered one side to the other along a weld seam...
                              Last edited by tackit; 09-07-2019, 08:18 AM.

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                              • #30
                                On two particular instances where I employed the cup of water....once was because there was a spring just below where I was welding that didn’t want to anneal, the other was a poly-something-or-other sleeve that I didn’t want to turn into a molten blob. Neither of which had anything to do with distortion or hot dogs.

                                Goodness.

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