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  • chinese welders......

    so ive been looking for a used 250amp machine for the shop. missed out on a hated millermatic 250x, just having a hard time justifying a 2500 dollar purchase for a new machine. i have a 170amp machine but need more. miller rep that comes to my work pretty much told me that the new inverter welders cost as much to fix as it it is to buy new and they go bad much more often than the old transformer machines. so i got to thinking why buy a lincoln 210mp or millermatic 215 for 1400 or so when you can buy a chinese knock off that may last as long for half the price. so i started looking into them, everlast brags a big name but looking into them they are shady to deal with and have to pay for shipping if some thing goes wrong. harbor freight has some nice units but you have to buy the warranty and they have no parts for purchase after warranty. got to nothern tool web site, they have there clutch series welders. 3 year warranty free shipping if it goes south and the 200 amp machine comes with a stick lead and spool gun and they have replacement parts. ya i know chinese welders are frowned apon. but if im spending over 1g on a unit its not going to be a 200amp class machine and it wont be a inverter based machine.. can buy two home class knock offs for the price of a american brand machine that is still full of chinese electronics.

  • #2
    also the main reason for the smaller machine is for the 120v/240v capability. for the jobs that come to my shop

    Comment


    • #3
      They are still a 200amp machine.

      20% Duty cycle @200amps.

      If that works for you then go ahead.
      __________________________________

      But if you need mo' power then I would suggest a Hobart Ironman 230 $1,384.00 @ Northern.

      250amp machine.

      rated: Duty cycle 60% at 175amps.

      30% at full 250 amps.

      looks like about 45% at 200amps.

      Ed Conley
      http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
      MM252
      MM211
      Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
      TA185
      Miller 125c Plasma 120v
      O/A set
      SO 2020 Bender
      You can call me Bacchus

      Comment


      • #4
        Some people love neverlast, others hate them. There's been a lot of negative reviews over the years, as well as good ones. But the negative ones are the ones that tend to stick. I don't find too much use in 120V "power". It's too limiting unless you have a top of the line dual-voltage machine that can run a 3.2mm 7018 @ 120A to actually be productive. Most other dual-voltage machines can only let you get away with about 100-110A, so that's a 2.4mm 7018/3.2mm 6011. If dual-voltage is that much of a concern, you can always get a voltage converter/transformer to run any 240V 1-Φ welder on a standard 120V/20A outlet. I got one on Ebay for about $130, a Litefuze LT-5000, just in case I have a side-job where there is no 240V outlet.
        HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
        HTP Pro Pulse 300 MIG
        HTP Pro Pulse 200 MIG x2
        HTP Pro Pulse 220 MTS
        HTP Inverarc 200 TLP water cooled
        HTP Microcut 875SC

        Comment


        • #5
          well to help things out here is some things about me. i weld for a company building heavy equipment, we run our welder hard all day on spray transfur settings with .045 wire. normally 29-31 volts and 460-510ipm. a 500lb or 1000lb spool of wire depending on the station lasts about 2-4 weeks. for years it wasnt an issue to bring things in to weld so i never needed a welder for home and ive lost out on alot of side jobs because of it.but the company is tightening up, so a while back i decided to get a welder for home. once the word got out that i was doing some things out of my shop, ive been having people asking me to weld there stuff. i have had a few jobs where i was pushing my little machine to the breaking point, thus why i want a real machine for the shop. but because i dont know where this side buisness is going im hesistent on spending so much on a brand new 250amp class machine. i know the multi volt 120/240 loose alot on 120v input but the few jobs ive used mine for was fixing mower decks and some light farm equipment parts for some older folks who didnt have the means to get the units to my shop. as for being leary about inverter machines, i have seen first hand how they last. when i start with my company we ran good ole delta weld 452's with out a hitch some were pushing ten years old. then about 3 years ago we switched out to the xmt450's. in the 3 years we have had the xmt450's i have seen more of them fail than any of the old delta series welders. i really like the specs on the ironman 230, but having run infinit adjustment welders for so long im really having a hard time stepping back to a tapped machine. even though the longevity aspect of it is much greater.really just trying to weigh my options with out breaking the bank. if this whole side buisness thing takes off, then i wont be in such a puckle trying to pick a machine

          Comment


          • #6
            Young fellow, lets begin with the reality that 120 volt machines are speced with the machine connected to a rock solid 120 volts coming to the lab bench. Add 20 feet of homeowner grade extension cord between welder and plug and you derate the machine by about 10-15%. Pretty much the same applys to household wiring. Most outlets in the house are on #14 wire so the voltage to the machine ain't 120 when it gets to the machine. Lower input voltage = lower machine output every time.

            Second reality you don't know about because of your age is the evolution of the MIG machine. Stepped transformers were the reality back in 1975, the famed MM-35 which begat the more beloved MM-200. Then came the age of self destroying electronic machines with insanely expensive PC boards nobody could fix because manufacturers made sure they couldn't be fixed.

            Stepped machines have spit millions of pounds of wire since 1975 and continue to do so every day around the world. The concept that a MIG machine needs to be dialed to the volt and IPM setting with a keypad is flat marketing bullcrap. IF you can weld production in a shop with a computer operated machine you can also make every one of those welds with a stepped transformer machine with a little practice. The production side of the industry has shifted from a place where weldors once welded to a place where welding machine operators push hot glue guns along a line. That was the goal set by Mr Lincoln back in the 60s. Glue gun drivers are a lot cheaper per foot of weld than weldors are.

            For your stated purpose, hunt up a used machine and get about making or loosing money for a while till you get the market figured out. You are not presently financially positioned to accommodate the customer so the customer either accommodates you or finds another vendor of in situ welding.
            That is the reality.

            Comment


            • #7
              I have to say that I had a continuously-variable-voltage Lincoln/Century machine, and when I got the chance to buy a MM200 for 500 bucks with bottle and regulator, I grabbed it, even if it was a 2+ hour drive each way. Time to learn to use the stepped machine after being used to the variable was minutes, not hours, to produce very acceptable welds. What a great machine the MM200 is! In my mind, continuously variable current is a much more "necessary" capability in stick welding than continuously variable voltage in a mig welder--others' opinions may differ, but that's mine. I know there have been thousands (millions?) of feet of perfectly acceptable weld laid down with stepped Lincoln buzzboxes, old Forneys, etc. But being able to "tune" the current for stick welding sure is nice. Pipeliners have ditch boxes for a reason.

              Mig? Continuously variable voltage is just not a big deal to me. I love that MM200! No fancy IGBTs, SCRs, control boards, etc. Just a massive big hunk of copper transformer in the bottom, and some relays, resistors, and capacitors. The only electronics is in the wire speed control, which is pretty simple stuff for which you will always be able to adapt a current part for whatever is obsolete. These machines work for generations of people with very little maintenance. As others have said, the Ironman 230 is a great, reliable, reasonably priced option. You might also consider HTP---USAweld.com. Their Mig200 is pretty much a knockoff of the MM200, I think but I've never used one. They have a great reputation, and good support, and even give you a schematic diagram of the wire feed circuit card, which is just unheard of these days. Only potential downside is it's a small operation, and if Jeff or Diana (did I spell that right?) get hit by a truck, there could be an issue--I don't know how much depth they have. But it's pretty hard to find anyone with a bad word to say about them.

              But, we're talking 200 amp machines, not 250.
              Last edited by Aeronca41; 08-16-2019, 08:28 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                The question becomes is a 250 amp machine necessary to the back yard welding shop, and I strongly suggest it is NOT. I can crank out 400 amps with my Hobart Brothers MIG machine and run 1/16 wire through the 4 roller feeder, bigger if I could find drive rollers. The exact number of times anything larger than .045 has been run through that feeder since it moved here is -0- ZERO..

                Lets also ask does the home shop have sufficient power to run a 250 amp machine?

                The industry has been able to build an infinite variable range machine since the Airco Dip Stick machines,, but infinitely variable was ABANDONED by the industry because it was unnecessary. It only returned when digital electronics made infinite voltage and inch by inch wire squirting possible and suddenly digital tradout setting machines were the be all and end all for SALES.
                Hey guess what, when you make welding machines you gotta sell new welding machines to keep the assembly line running. Send out the salesmen to spew how superior the new improved infinite digital control is because it's made with Secret Ingredients and will make the jagoff on the mezzanine with opera glasses happy reading them readouts so he can create useless records for ISO 7865 or some such crap.

                Would you like the 100,000 mile extended car warranty package with that?

                Second reality is the mental midget buying new welders is a purchasing agent who would probably pee his pants if he saw an arc flash. He will buy New and Improved though because the hustler peddling it said it would deliver more feet of weld per roll of wire. It don't, it won't and it also won't cut the electric bill or make ice cubes come out some door.

                The difference between what a legitimate 200 amp machine like the MM-200 made by Miller Electric will deliver in an hour and what a Supergalacticintercontinental 250 amp machine will deliver is probably measurable with a yardstick. I've seen MM-200s sitting next to 400 amp machines for good reason, but I have yet to see 200s sitting next to 250s for any reason other than salesmanship.

                As to Neverlast, and that entire line of machines, go direct to Chinabay and pick the one you desire for a couple hundred. Neverlast don't pay much for a container load of them, and now you too can buy one at a time shipped direct to your door.
                Stop buying retail and salescrap.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I’ve gone down this road, it was a complete waste of time and money. My trip was with Longevity welders. By the end of it, I was so pissed off, they offered to give me $300 of “credit” to buy whatever I wanted from their list of online junk, and I told them I wouldn’t take anything they were selling if they paid me to take it. The service was absolutely the worst I’ve had of any industry. Sent the wrong machine, then made me pay AGAIN for them to ship out the right one only to be credited that money back once they received the return. Then I had to pay for return shipping AND shipping of the right machine and when the right machine arrived it had the wrong size dinze connectors to even hook up the leads. I ended up keeping both machines and selling them locally because shipping back to them was so expensive. And they couldn’t understand why I was so mad at them. Longevity and everlast, as understand it, are basically across the street from each other and there is some sort of family connection and, of course, drama in there. Brother-in-laws or something.

                  For everything that is just and good, stay away from that market. Be patient, keep an eye on the used market and ask around. Everything you’d ever need for your shop is sitting idle in someone’s garage nearby.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    after all i have read online, i wouldnt think of buying from neverlast or longevity. if i were to pick of a chicom unit it would be from who ever has the best track record of customer service and i believe northern tool seems to be the best. after looking at them all from everlast,eastwood ect, they all look like the same darn machine just different colors and different molding shapes. im just throwing ideas around, even at a lesser cost it still be hard buying one even if it does last lets say 5years

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                      The question becomes is a 250 amp machine necessary to the back yard welding shop, and I strongly suggest it is NOT. I can crank out 400 amps with my Hobart Brothers MIG machine and run 1/16 wire through the 4 roller feeder, bigger if I could find drive rollers. The exact number of times anything larger than .045 has been run through that feeder since it moved here is -0- ZERO..

                      Lets also ask does the home shop have sufficient power to run a 250 amp machine?

                      The industry has been able to build an infinite variable range machine since the Airco Dip Stick machines,, but infinitely variable was ABANDONED by the industry because it was unnecessary. It only returned when digital electronics made infinite voltage and inch by inch wire squirting possible and suddenly digital tradout setting machines were the be all and end all for SALES.
                      Hey guess what, when you make welding machines you gotta sell new welding machines to keep the assembly line running. Send out the salesmen to spew how superior the new improved infinite digital control is because it's made with Secret Ingredients and will make the jagoff on the mezzanine with opera glasses happy reading them readouts so he can create useless records for ISO 7865 or some such crap.

                      Would you like the 100,000 mile extended car warranty package with that?

                      Second reality is the mental midget buying new welders is a purchasing agent who would probably pee his pants if he saw an arc flash. He will buy New and Improved though because the hustler peddling it said it would deliver more feet of weld per roll of wire. It don't, it won't and it also won't cut the electric bill or make ice cubes come out some door.

                      The difference between what a legitimate 200 amp machine like the MM-200 made by Miller Electric will deliver in an hour and what a Supergalacticintercontinental 250 amp machine will deliver is probably measurable with a yardstick. I've seen MM-200s sitting next to 400 amp machines for good reason, but I have yet to see 200s sitting next to 250s for any reason other than salesmanship.

                      As to Neverlast, and that entire line of machines, go direct to Chinabay and pick the one you desire for a couple hundred. Neverlast don't pay much for a container load of them, and now you too can buy one at a time shipped direct to your door.
                      Stop buying retail and salescrap.
                      yes i agree i wouldnt use it to its full potential most of the time. but i am a cry once buy once kind of guy. id rather have that much of a unit for if it is ever needed, vs not having it and getting a job and say boy i really wish i bought the bigger unit..also i have a 100amp service in the shop strait off the pole with a healthy 220-225vac so i should be good on power

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                        Young fellow, lets begin with the reality that 120 volt machines are speced with the machine connected to a rock solid 120 volts coming to the lab bench. Add 20 feet of homeowner grade extension cord between welder and plug and you derate the machine by about 10-15%. Pretty much the same applys to household wiring. Most outlets in the house are on #14 wire so the voltage to the machine ain't 120 when it gets to the machine. Lower input voltage = lower machine output every time.

                        Second reality you don't know about because of your age is the evolution of the MIG machine. Stepped transformers were the reality back in 1975, the famed MM-35 which begat the more beloved MM-200. Then came the age of self destroying electronic machines with insanely expensive PC boards nobody could fix because manufacturers made sure they couldn't be fixed.

                        Stepped machines have spit millions of pounds of wire since 1975 and continue to do so every day around the world. The concept that a MIG machine needs to be dialed to the volt and IPM setting with a keypad is flat marketing bullcrap. IF you can weld production in a shop with a computer operated machine you can also make every one of those welds with a stepped transformer machine with a little practice. The production side of the industry has shifted from a place where weldors once welded to a place where welding machine operators push hot glue guns along a line. That was the goal set by Mr Lincoln back in the 60s. Glue gun drivers are a lot cheaper per foot of weld than weldors are.

                        For your stated purpose, hunt up a used machine and get about making or loosing money for a while till you get the market figured out. You are not presently financially positioned to accommodate the customer so the customer either accommodates you or finds another vendor of in situ welding.
                        That is the reality.
                        i never said stepped machines were bad in any way. i have run many of them with out issue, set the tap fine tune with the wire speed. but i was able to notice the gaps between the different tap settings, which isnt a huge deal when dealing with 1/8th in or thicker material. all i was saying is that from running infinit adjustable machines all day for ten plus years, and being able to fine tune every from run in,burn back, pre and post flow ect that it would be hard to step back to a stepped unit.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by caleb90 View Post
                          they all look like the same darn machine just different colors and different molding shapes.
                          When i was in sales at our local LWS we were a Miller, Forney and Lincoln dealer. We stocked Millers. Never saw a Lincoln come thru there. Sold lots of their 7018 to the contractors that had to have fresh opened rod just to use 3 sticks and pitch the rest. All the dist flyers we would get for wire, rod and ect all had welders in them. They pretty much looked the same just different color and whatever the greatest gun or cables the dist had for that week. The only one i would pay attention to this day and age if it was blue or red would be forney. I met the grandson of the founder. Their machines are made in Italy in the old Miller plant. Just saying good luck and i have been in your shoes over the last 40 some years...Bob
                          Bob Wright

                          Spool Gun conversion. How To Do It. Below.
                          http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...php?albumid=48

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by caleb90 View Post
                            yes i agree i wouldnt use it to its full potential most of the time. but i am a cry once buy once kind of guy.
                            Originally posted by caleb90 View Post
                            after all i have read online, i wouldnt think of buying from neverlast or longevity.
                            That's good. You should pick up a HTP ProPulse 300 if you really want to cry, lol. It stings at first, but it is a very capable machine when properly outfitted.
                            HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
                            HTP Pro Pulse 300 MIG
                            HTP Pro Pulse 200 MIG x2
                            HTP Pro Pulse 220 MTS
                            HTP Inverarc 200 TLP water cooled
                            HTP Microcut 875SC

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OscarJr View Post



                              That's good. You should pick up a HTP ProPulse 300 if you really want to cry, lol. It stings at first, but it is a very capable machine when properly outfitted.
                              i was looking at the htp 2400, the 24 taps on hand would make it handy. but it is light on duty cycle compared to the hobart. plus like mentioned above, if some thing were to happen to the supplyer. ya might be up s#$% creek on parts

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