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  • #16
    Flashing a genset is nice. An old geezer showed me how to parallel two gensets for more power. It essentially amounted to putting a suitable voltage bulb between the gensets, and with a light load on one, waiting for the differential voltage between the gensets to null put, and then throwing a breaker to connect the two in parallel. Since I have two identical diesel gensets, I hooked up the rigging to do this, and it means I can run my heat pump and AC the place when the grid is down. It's not Texas here, but the house can be cool. One genset will run the shop compressor, but can't start the well and the heatpump. Two can fire up those essential survival tools.


    • #17
      I have two little Hondas that I can parallel, but I have the fancy Honda parallel cable for that. It's a nice backup to the Onan in the RV.

      This experiment in resurrection sent me down a path learning some tid bits about floating neutrals vs bonded neutrals and how some panels can cause problems if you try and power them with a genset....I don't quite fully understand it yet, but I get the gist I think.

      Frank, I think the digression of the generator market like you describe can pretty much be a broad brush stroke across most products. Manufacturers looking for cheaper was to make stuff, engineers looking for more ways to show us how smart they are, the lack of overall ability of the general all equals a disposable market.

      And as far as Texas defeating're welcome.


      • #18
        Ryan, the texas thing we're working on figuring out is how anyone could survive in Texas at that time without AC. Come to think of it how did I survive growing up without AC or TV or all those things people can't live without? I might be having Electron Deficiency Anemia because of it.

        Your Hondas are NOT gensets or alternators in the conventional sense, they are more akin to gasoline fueled UPS.
        Attempting comparison to alternators and gensets is a nightmare beyond gasoline goes in here and electrons come out there.

        Pretty much all gensets can be paralleled for increased output. It's done every day by power companies and by peak shedding and loasharing users and as long as the electronics have the machines in phase and at speed it works. Done wrong, machines tend to flip over, or come apart sending showers of molten copper into the area.

        I have a 60s vintage 3500 watt machine I got new that came with instructions on paralleling the machine.

        I also have a phase indicator from around 1910 that came out of an industrial power house where they could parallel their machines as demand increased.

        Floating neutral -v- bonded neutral is an interesting theoretical discussed beyond death by Inturdnet X Spertz.
        Sitting in this chair I can with absolute certainty say bonding Neutral to "Ground" at the initial interface between utility and user didn't begin happening till around 64. When 3 wire outlets began appearing in residential use and 2 wire Romex with ground appeared on the market in 64, the majority of ground wires were snipped and ignored where the Romex entered the device box. Ground wires in residential Romex didn't really begin getting used to the device itself until 66. Industrial situations, particularly in Delta configuration, are an entirely different situation with regard to ground.

        When I'm dead and in my eternal file drawer, that information may no longer be relevant. I'm already informed what I know and know how to accomplish is no longer of value, google will provide the best information directly to the device in the hand of a matriculated Moron with a Diploma. The reality of the US power system is a different matter, and I strongly advocate standby gensets. I also advocate knowing how to maintain a fuel supply to the set, and honestly tell people the NG pipeline will go empty fast as pipelines switch from internal combustion pumping to computer controlled remotely operated by a Diplomated Dipwad in a basement bunker miles away.

        Texas may need to be abandoned for need of AC if a large regional power failure attacks Texas. The evacuation may be disorderly since most gasoline and Diesel are in underground tanks at stations, and can't be gotten out without electricity to power the pump and computer along with the air conditioned bunker the station attendant dwells in. It's all part of what is called progress and environmental protection, both concepts based on the work of Edward Bernays a Century ago. Thankfully we have abundant kids with Degrees and lab coats to solve these problems.


        • #19
          Originally posted by Franz© View Post
          ........ The reality of the US power system is a different matter, and I strongly advocate standby gensets. I also advocate knowing how to maintain a fuel supply to the set, and honestly tell people the NG pipeline will go empty fast as pipelines switch from internal combustion pumping to computer controlled remotely operated by a Diplomated Dipwad in a basement bunker miles away.......

          Your point about the NG lines going empty is said to have happened in Ca, I think in the LA area, a few years ago. Hospitals, fire stations, police depts, etc. all went on their NG backups....for about 15 minutes. Apparently all the compressors in the area were run by electricity, said to be driven by the fact the EPA was giving the gas companies grief about the pollution from their NG fired internal combustion compressors, so they just took 'em all out and put in electric! The collective stupidity of whomever is "in charge" is beyond incredible. Where to do they find these people?


          • #20
            Commiefornia. The land of the not-so free and home of the man-bun.


            • #21
              One should never underestimate the ability of large numbers of matriculated morons on the government payroll.
              Back in the 80s it was my joy to be involved in the exchange of 1950s vintage Onan and Kohler plants at a multitude of government controlled dam sites.
              Fine 7.5 and 15 KW 1800 rpm machines were replaced by modern GeneCRAP belt driven machines because the old machines couldn't be remotely started by an arriving dam operator. The contract required removal of the obsolete machines as well.

              Last job I'm sitting there in my coach looking at my tax return when I decide to prove the stupidity of engineers beyond any doubt. Old machine is on a trailer strapped down so I hook a battery to it, and a 100 foot extension cord leading to essentially a ditch box for the genset. As the Contract Administrator and engineers sign off, I sort of ease the conversation around to the importance of remote start/stop. After the "educated fools" splained it all I handed the engineer the box and had him push the button marked Start. Everybody could hear the unmuffeled machine come alive. The button marked STOP shut the machine off too. The .Gov fools admitted that machine could be remote started and stopped, and I assured them all the rst could too. I even thanked them for the contribution the taxpayers made toward my coach which was equipped with another machine from a prior job..

              Their answer to WHY all that money was flushed was "We didn't know it could be done".
              Evidently they were too stupid to look, let alone read the books from Onan and Kohler.
              I do express my personal gratitude to taxpayers for my personal gensets I still have in use.

              Part B; The National Electric Code since 1960 has been very specific on emergency standby gensets. Back when men without even High School Diplomas ran and built systems it was recognized as a poor idea for an emergency set to be dependent on public utility fuel. After all if the lights went out there was a chance the gas might stop coming down the pipe as well. Of course NEC only applies in communities that have adopted it, and then it becomes entirely a matter of interpitation by the Authority Having Jurisdiction. Guess what section I have never seen enforced by an inspector in over 50 years?
              Here the Town mandates a GPS location and letter of gas availability to get a genset permit. Guess what Nobody pulls a Permit for?

              Part C; Until 5 years ago you could look at a map of the Grid and see stations annotated House indicating that Station had a house generator along with the main generators. Russel Sta in Rochester had a HOUSE set that enabled Russel to isolate and remain alive during the last 2 regional failures.
              Russel staying alive enabled adjacent grids to come back on line rapidly by syncing to Russel and NY, Mass, and Pennsylvania came back from the Ohio mess in under 6 hours.

              Electronics in power control have gotten much better as time went on, and today every electron in NY not coming from a battery is controlled by one village idiot with a Diploma in a cave under a State building in Albany. He is Prince Power and he can make his screne do tricks.
              Russel Sta came under new ownership and was immediately disabled so the owner could make more profit selling off the AlGore Polution Credits than could be made generating power. A group of government nose pickers came to Rochester and conducted a hearing, and I can assure you I personally explained why Russel needed to remain alive. Naturally destroying then coal fired Russel to make the Coal Killer in Rainbow House happy happened.

              My estimate is it will take minimally 10 days to bring the NorthEast grid back up WHEN the next brownout/blackout happens.

              More naturally taxpayers will pay for the next 30 years for the 16" gas line coming from Buffalo to serve the empty lot where Russel was.

              We the un credentialed are well and truly screwed. It should be fun watching the Diploma Owners when the crash happens.


              • #22
                We need John Galt.


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
                  I got it from a guy who got it a few years ago, reported to me that it ran fine just didn't make power, right out of the box. I told him to take it forward to yesterday, it lands on my bench. Drained 2 gallons of old gas out, tore the carb down and cleaned it, rinsed out the fuel tank and she runs perfect again.

                  So, on to the flashing part....probably 30 years ago or so, I watched my uncle make two "mechanics" look like dummies. Had a big army surplus genset, started and ran fine. They couldn't get it to make power though. He walked out there with a 1/2" drill, plugged it in, spun the chuck by hand a few magic. I just didn't think I was remembering that moment correctly. Surely he did something else.


                  I just did it. Fired it up, plugged in a 1/2" drill motor, grabbed the chuck and spun it backwards three cranks by hand and she drew breath. Took literally five seconds.

                  But yes, I did pop the end open and look in there before I started looking for something obvious.

                  So, for anyone that's curious, here is the procedure:

                  1. Fire up the genset
                  2. Make sure the breakers are closed
                  3. Plug in your drill motor paying attention to polarity
                  4. Set the drill to run forward
                  5. Squeeze and hold the trigger
                  6. Spin the chuck by hand in the BACKWARDS direction
                  7. Be ready to let go because she's about to twist your hand off when the genset lights off

                  Done and done.

                  Now go forth, search craigslist for people selling generators that will run but not make power and cash in.

                  Jones out.
                  Nice work, on how you got it to work. Question: Do you need to do the drill trick every time you fire it up? I would think so, but it's just a guess.
                  HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
                  HTP Pro Pulse 300 MIG
                  HTP Pro Pulse 200 MIG x2
                  HTP Pro Pulse 220 MTS
                  HTP Inverarc 200 TLP water cooled
                  HTP Microcut 875SC


                  • #24
                    I read a post on another forum where a guy did have to do that every time, but he also made mention that some glued on magnetic bits had fallen off the armature, so that probably had something to do with it.

                    This generator sat here for another few days, I cranked it before it left and it was fine. My guess is that if it sits up a long time it will lose its fill again.

                    In my searches since, I haven't read much about people saying this trick did not work for them. All things considered and in operating order, this trick should work. But seriously, this generator sat for several years AFTER it was known to not make power. No telling how long it sat on the shelf before he bought it. For it to come alive that fast, I'd say it doesn't take much to make it chooch again.


                    • #25
                      The trick isn't all that much of a trick.
                      What is happening is the drill is becoming a small series connected generator when spun. Put a meter on any drill that is NOT variable speed, lock the trigger on and spin the drill. You will see voltage, usually filthy DC.

                      When the DC charge from the drill hits the Stator of the alternator it turns the stator into a magnetic coil. Magnetic flux from the stator imparts magnetism into the rotor sufficient to get the alternator producing.
                      You can accomplish the same thing with a battery, but the drill method is SAFER.

                      Using a drill when the machine begins to produce electrons they will flow into the drill and the drill will run. Doing it with a battery EVEN IF YOU CAN RAPIDLY DISCONNECT THE BATTERY will put 120 volts ± into the battery and turn it into a nasty device simulating a hand grenade.

                      The alternator is a simple machine with NO wired electrical CONNECTION between rotor and stator. Some higher wattage machines employ a transformer drawing electrons produced by the machine and send them to the rotor via slip rings to regulate voltage via excitement. This system is rarely found below 5 kva machines.

                      The portable "generator" industry is full of cheats.
                      Some machines employ small rare earth magnets attached to the rotor to initially excite the machine. They work till a magnet falls off or looses its energy level. I've long proffered the idea these machines have a timer built in so they fail at the end of Warranty.

                      An older cheat involves using an electrolytic capacitor to deliver a small DC voltage to the slip rings and on to the rotor. As long as the capacitor is good and charged, the system excites and comes to life. If the capacitor is dead NUTTIN.

                      My experience with old machines displaying these problems says step 1 is replacing the capacitor. If that don't work, install a pair of wires to the slip ring brushes, determine polarity, and momentarily apply DC from a battery to the slip rings while the machine is running. This is a safe way to employ a battery to excite a machine. If it won't light up with 12 volts on the rotor via a current limiting backup light lamp, completely disconnect the capacitor and retry.


                      • #26
                        I think the point of it being a trick is knowing that doing this little thing magically fixes something that was nearly discarded and could now, by knowing this "trick", save your bacon in a pinch.

                        It's always the little things we learn as we move along in our lives that make us good at stuff. Be it your job, or mowing the lawn, or fixing your car...etc.

                        Do most people understand the physics of how a wrench or socket applies pressure to a bolt head? I highly doubt it. Almost no one cares. Put wrench on bolt, turn left to loosen, right to tighten....most of the time at least.


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
                          Do most people understand the physics of how a wrench or socket applies pressure to a bolt head? I highly doubt it. Almost no one cares. Put wrench on bolt, turn left to loosen, right to tighten....most of the time at least.
                          Most of the 2019 population is incapable of identifying a socket, and is only barely competent to proudly announce "That's outside of my discipline".

                          That's primarily a function of Buglers refusing to learn the fine art of texting instructions directly into the handheld devices of the new kids occupying bunker gear. Sadly, we now dwell among Credentialed nonperformers who can't understand the TXT to move the scrap pallets to the upper levels of the burn tower. The only thing keeping the system moving is a Mis-administrator developing specs to contract the pallet moving job out. By the way, how's climate control coming along in the burn tower? We can't have the probie's moms out there complaining again.

                          NEVER underestimate the power of stupid in large numbers!