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  • #31
    Originally posted by Franz© View Post
    Another skill set began a rapid death, today I doubt you can find a man in the US who can O/A weld 4" pipe to code.
    I retired from an oil refinery a few years ago and the boss had an old b&w pic on his wall of someone gas welding a 6" pipe that left the refinery. That pipeline ran about 65 miles to our barge port on the Ohio River..Bob
    Bob Wright

    Spool Gun conversion. How To Do It. Below.
    http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...php?albumid=48

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    • #32
      To continue' inverted and frameless using Fleetweld 5 and patented it. They built 2 ship assembly lines and 72 hulls in under a year.

      Kids (50 and under) don't seem to find value in knowing skills, they want it plug & play and "can't see it from my house" is the current standard of quality. OK, what's the prize for the generation that looses the most knowledge & skills? Those meters and digital readouts on the machine ain't there for the weldor, they're there so some meatloaf on a balcony with opera glasses can verify the machine operator is within parameters and check a box on his screen. The next generation of machines will report directly and his job will be gone.

      What I know and what I can do may not be marketable but it can't be taken from me.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Franz© View Post
        To continue' inverted and frameless using Fleetweld 5 and patented it. They built 2 ship assembly lines and 72 hulls in under a year.

        Kids (50 and under) don't seem to find value in knowing skills, they want it plug & play and "can't see it from my house" is the current standard of quality. OK, what's the prize for the generation that looses the most knowledge & skills? Those meters and digital readouts on the machine ain't there for the weldor, they're there so some meatloaf on a balcony with opera glasses can verify the machine operator is within parameters and check a box on his screen. The next generation of machines will report directly and his job will be gone.

        What I know and what I can do may not be marketable but it can't be taken from me.
        Seriously there are exciting things going on in the welding world.
        My Dad was a Frame repairman in a body shop when I grew up.
        He taught me OA first. I taught myself everything from there.
        I believe OA should be taught to everyone first.
        I as an Army Machinist. At the school in Aberdeen you had to be proficient with a file before you could move into lathes and milling. Some guys never moved forward and had to ship out. One of those guys had worked in a machine shop. Basics are important to applied skillsets. Too many occupations are skipping basics.

        If the grid goes down..... old guys will rule the repair world !!

        www.facebook.com/outbackaluminumwelding
        Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
        MM 350P...PULSE SPRAYIN' MONSTER
        Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
        Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"

        Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
        Miller 30-A Spoolgun
        Miller WC-115-A
        Miller Spectrum 300
        Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
        Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400

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        • #34
          It's never going back.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
            It's never going back.
            Possibly not, but it is fun to watch unfold.

            In one way Ryan, you're right, and in another you're 180° out. In my last 5 years actually doing hands on work I told a lot of customers the job could be dome just as well with epoxy as it could with brass and for much less money. Labor is very expensive, and so is heat. Had someone told me in 1960 the day would come I'd advocate stickum over welding or brazing I'd have had no hesitancy telling them they were nuts.


            I think I rebuilt the Coates 40-40 machine in my bud's auto shop 3 or 4 times. Most repairs were wallowed out holes and worn out pins, walk in the park jobs with a carbon slug & stick. Another repair was the spindle bearing, $180+ from the hydraulic shop that would sell it. $40 for Devcon bronze bearing in a can. The Coates got traded for a new vertical Super Whoopie Duzall from SnapOn, with 4 pedals and a neat little bar that flys and hits the dummy square in the teeth. I did a happy dance when I was told I wasn't allowed to use the NEW supermachine, too complex for an old fart like me, and nobody had time to train me. OK, by the way, the design is 1956 Mays, and you're gonna play he!! with keeping that bar out of your mouth. Might be a good idea to get a larger air hose to it too.

            5 years down the road, Super Whoopie is replaced by Super Whoopie 3 with a 1” smurf tube from the machine to the receiver of the compressor. Bein old & dummmm I ask and learn the old machine was loosing power, couldn't break the new tires coming in. The SnapOn driver/hustler insisted on the Smurftube, which he just happens to sell or the warranty was void. Plasticrap had to come directly from receiver to machine. I thought a valve at the receiver might have been nice, but what do I know?

            I'm still figuring out how the plasticrap moves more air than could have come from the 2” header line 8 feet above the machine, but I may never know since I don't drive a SnatchOn truck.

            I did look at the machine waiting to go away, wallowed out pin holes. Oddly it has the same diameter air diaphrams as the new one. Little more looking and I determined the valve on the new machine has a larger diameter air path to the breaker.

            I didn't mention any of my observations since this group of computer interfacing Certified Automotive Teknushynz proved they weren't capable of understanding rebuilding the lift cylinder on the forklift a few months before. There is no possible way the ram in a cylinder with a rubber cup and O rings can possibly be the same concept as a piston riding back and forth in an engine cylinder. Put another way, the trained apes are very similar to welding machine operators awaiting robots to replace them. Don't much matter what the heat fused patch on the shirt says if you don't know the trade you're just a W-2 assembly line place filler.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
              It's never going back.
              You are very correct.
              Except my family is an exception. Every one of my boys has learned my trade. 2 of them the trade before that.
              Now my Grandsons will next. 2 of them have tig aluminum experience. I have 5 more Grandsons to go and hopefully they can spend their summers with me enough to pick up the basics of life.....according to Grandpa And that is how things work, meaning everything. not rocket science, but still science.
              And how to make it real. How to improve everything. Whether it's a better camshaft or thicker metal or whatever......it's all on the table when Grandpa is in the house!! (and Grandma isn't really much different)

              www.facebook.com/outbackaluminumwelding
              Miller Dynasty 700...OH YEA BABY!!
              MM 350P...PULSE SPRAYIN' MONSTER
              Miller Dynasty 280 with AC independent expansion card
              Miller Dynasty 200 DX "Blue Lightning"

              Miller Bobcat 225 NT (what I began my present Biz with!)
              Miller 30-A Spoolgun
              Miller WC-115-A
              Miller Spectrum 300
              Miller 225 Thunderbolt (my first machine bought new 1980)
              Miller Digital Elite Titanium 9400

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              • #37
                Me and a machinist buddy of mine were talking about this the other day. The discussion was around whether or not to even bother teaching manual machining when so little is done that way compared to cnc. Even small, one-offs are done on a cnc these days. He's a proponent of manual machining, simply because that's how you learn how things are REALLY done. Even if all you do is sit on a stool and watch the machine chooch, you'll benefit from your knowledge of manual machining. But, from a business owner standpoint, there's no benefit to him to teach new guy's manual machining.

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                • #38
                  I'm not a machinist, but it was my understanding a person has to know how to machine a part, THEN they can program the CNC to do the work.

                  If your given a print and don't know how to machine it, the the cnc is going to be sitting idle.

                  I guess my point is shouldn't manual machining be a prerequisite to cnc?
                  Richard

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ltbadd View Post
                    I'm not a machinist, but it was my understanding a person has to know how to machine a part, THEN they can program the CNC to do the work.
                    Originally posted by Ltbadd View Post

                    If your given a print and don't know how to machine it, the the cnc is going to be sitting idle.

                    I guess my point is shouldn't manual machining be a prerequisite to cnc?

                    I'm afraid not. It's the business model of automation. One guy who knows, the rest stay dumb and do. Same for welding. Think robotics. Put the parts in place and hit a button. One guy knows how, the rest lay parts and push the go button.

                    This thread started off about the cost of lenses. I'm sure there was a welding class that said you need a helmet, you need clean lenses to see, but do you think it included anything about the economics of the purchase when buying a helmet? I doubt it.

                    Another post mentions a HF helmet with non replaceable batteries? Lol. Priced cheap for a reason I guess?

                    Click image for larger version

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                    And Franz, if I had to I think I still could.

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                    • #40
                      A good friend owns a large sheet metal fab shop......where he has laser burning tables , CNC Punch's and Press brakes and builds allot of steel , aluminum and stainless components that find there way into sub assembly's of larger rolling components.........the engineers that send him orders do so via Cad..........He is constantly going back and forth with these engineers on there drawings as to how it can be built pursuant to the drawing..........these engineers have no experience outside of there windowless room and there keyboard ..........It seems the drawings & components are being changed constantly to accommodate the manufacturing side vs the virtual side...........

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Franz© View Post
                        Those meters and digital readouts on the machine ain't there for the weldor, they're there so some meatloaf on a balcony with opera glasses can verify the machine operator is within parameters and check a box on his screen. The next generation of machines will report directly and his job will be gone.
                        It already exists. My powerwave does this and can make "weld reports", it can all be accessed over an Ethernet network and this is a 10+ year old machine. From a business owner perspective some of the features on these machines are great. If I can spit out parts faster then the competition because of some technological welding improvement it puts me at a major competitive advantage. From a welder point of view I think things were much simpler back in the day. I said it before and I will say it again, the old welders had it better then the new generation. Just my opinion anyways.

                        As to all the talk about OA welding, manual machining etc...

                        I agree its good to learn oa welding at first. It was / is still being taught in my area as the first thing. Reason is, like you said it teaches puddle control, etc. If its not already been taken out of the curriculum it probably will be soon. Same thing with machining, how can you really know whats happening with cnc if you don't first learn manual machining. Finally its the same thing with engineering. I have a friend that's originally from Germany and studied mechanical engineering over there. He had to spend many hours on the shop floor learning the basics of welding, fabrication, and machining. How can you be a good engineer if you don't know the basics of how things are built? That's the mentality over in Germany (Europe?) and probably a large part of why they have such a strong economy based around manufacturing. Over here in Canada we just like to send out all our raw products to the rest of the world for cheap.


                        www.silvercreekwelding.com

                        Miller Trailblazer 325 efi
                        Miller extreme 12vs
                        Thermal arc 186 ac/dc
                        Lincoln power wave 455m/stt with 10m dual feeder

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                        • #42
                          Noel, I knew that man, and I can probably still lay hands on both those goggles and the OxWeld he's using. Remember the felt hats well too, there was a old Italian who bought all the leftbehind hats in town from restaurants and hat blockers and came around shops on payday selling them to be cut down to welding caps. That's a Lucky sticking out of his mouth for sure.

                          Wilvis the state of automation is merely gaining speed. Its been around since the 50s, and I'm guilty of installing, updating and repairing a lot of it. Fellow named Deming got a lot of it in motion back in the 40s and took it to Japan when US manufacturers wouldn't listen to him. In the welding industry things began to get entertaining in the 80s when both Red & Blue placed machines on shop floors with crude computers under the hood. Red had a phone jack in the back so the machine could call Cleveland at a blazing 110 baud rate and Blue had plug in boards. The race was on, and smart shop owners learned to lease soon to be obsolete machines rather than invest in them.
                          As I recall the battle of the decade was square wave -v- sawtooth wave on the production floor and the power sources left a lot to be desired but the salesmen swore that big box was gonna make you a fortune if you just signed on the dotted line.
                          I was happy in my world of stick and O/A burning tires up on my average service call that was 1500 miles in each direction. Production welding wasn't my game, and I was making money enough to be cowboy rich. I hate making 3 of anything, it becomes boring. We were already well down the road James Lincoln had said we'd take in the 60s.

                          Euro methods -v- US methods of training is a whole different topic, and one I'm slightly conversant with in the 80s time frame. My wife went to Germany for 6 months to learn converting pipe organs from mechanical operation to electric operation. She returned 18 months later sure she only knew half at best of what she needed to know. Germany was already converting to the US model of minimal task disposable employees.
                          Today watch the Koreans such as Hyundai in terms of how they bring their methods to their US plants. Hyundai offers a plant tour where you ride around on a tram and see pretty much everything other than the paint line. Human/robot interaction is maximized and so is productivity.

                          Human/machine interface is a whole other topic. I worked on installing the first Milwaukeematic in Rochester, sitting on a 12 foot cube of concrete to keep the machine stable in 1965. It ran from paper tape, and programmers held their collective breaths watching the machine go through it's first few cycles. Next came machines that programmed themselves as a skilled man ran the job the first time. Then came engineers who were sure they could do it faster and make more scrap going to remelt.
                          The high speed train is running and it won't stop. It will and does go off the tracks though, and some human will need to fix it.

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                          • #43
                            CORRECTION in bold below.

                            Originally posted by Willvis View Post
                            I agree its good to learn oa welding at first. It was / is still being taught in my area as the first thing.
                            It all depends. When I first started doing things all I had was an OA rig available. I was actually taught how to weld with OA by an old farm mechanic who insisted I learn to do it with a CUTTING head first in case that was all I had handy. He taught me to patch muffler skins with a clothes hanger and a CUTTING head. I hardly even touch my torch today except to move the cart out of the way. Its also where I store my portable MAP torch I use for quick and dirty small part powder coating and shrink wrap. LOL.


                            Same thing with machining, how can you really know whats happening with cnc if you don't first learn manual machining.
                            CNC machining (niche market on the mill) is what I do for a living. I have learned what speeds and feeds work and I can code on the fly to use a CNC machine like a manual machine with no worries about steadiness of hand. I know I can rough at a certain rate and I write a line of code that does that. For the most part its still faster than manual machining. For me learning manual machining was secondary for personal satisfaction. I WANT a nice manual knee mill in my shop eventually. I have had a couple small manual mills and used them. Most of my machines require air. When I needed a mounting plate for a new pump on my compressor I used a manual mill to make it. Manual machines sometimes require a little less infrastructure. That being said I do quite a bit of work semi ** manually on the lathe for one off repair parts, but if I had a CNC lathe I could do it faster and better even running it at the MDI command line. Also, inspite of what a lot of old manual machinist think about feel I still know what 100IPM "looks" like and I know what chatter sounds like. I'm sure they can all manually machine better than I can, but I can manually (command line) CNC machine the things I would do manually faster than they can when I need to. I know I'll never convince some folks. Its ok. We can have different points of view and still make things. I don't think you have to have turned the handles to know what is going on. It probably doesn't hurt, but plenty of people are smart enough to know what they see.

                            Finally its the same thing with engineering. I have a friend that's originally from Germany and studied mechanical engineering over there. He had to spend many hours on the shop floor learning the basics of welding, fabrication, and machining. How can you be a good engineer if you don't know the basics of how things are built? That's the mentality over in Germany (Europe?) and probably a large part of why they have such a strong economy based around manufacturing. Over here in Canada we just like to send out all our raw products to the rest of the world for cheap.
                            I can't speak to engineering as its really to broad of a scope. I just make things. Mostly they work.

                            ** I say semi manually, because once you start using power feeds and power cross feeds there isn't much difference between CNC and manual. You set your parameters and "press go" on one and flip the lever on the other. The difference is CNC can also do all the in between stuff for you to.
                            Last edited by Bob La Londe; 04-27-2019, 03:44 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Almost verbatim what my machinist buddy said, Bob.

                              I'm a terrible machinist with hardly any experience. If I have the choice to get a manual knee mill or one with a DRO and auto feed, it'll be the DRO and auto feed.

                              I had a chance to pick up a Bridgeport with cnc controls. I should've listened to the guy selling it. He said don't be intimidated by the computer controlling it, it's much easier than you think. I should've popped on it. But my stubbornness overruled me.

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                              • #45
                                "Noel, I knew that man, and I can probably still lay hands on both those goggles and the OxWeld he's using. Remember the felt hats well too, there was a old Italian who bought all the leftbehind hats in town from restaurants and hat blockers and came around shops on payday selling them to be cut down to welding caps. That's a Lucky sticking out of his mouth for sure."


                                Well Franz, I'm dumb founded speechless! I thought that picture was just the coolest. Hope he's doing well. You all to by the way. I was thinking the same thing about the smoke. Lol. You mentioned Lucky and I knew you nailed it.

                                I just wanted to say I've been enjoying the reading. And the learning. Thanks to you all.

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