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  • MetalCaterpillar
    started a topic Stainless Steel T Joint vertical

    Stainless Steel T Joint vertical

    Does anyone have any tips on how to help, I'm just not getting enough penetration into the corner.

    I'm using 1/8 309 SS rod, it's a t joint made up of 1/2" thick carbon plates.

    I'm doing them in the horizontal, vertical and overhead positions

    It's a CWB test weld so I can't change the size of the rod (I feel like it wouldn't be an issue if I could drop down to 3/32) and I can't use a grinder (except to get rid of the millscale where I'm going to be welding)

    I normally don't have issues with SS, I Tig and weld pipe fine with it but all of a sudden I'm trying to weld some fillets on some plates and nothing wants to work.

  • Noel
    replied
    Originally posted by MetalCaterpillar View Post

    I did apprentice in province and I did both NAIT and SAIT.

    It was just a test that was kind of sprung on me by an employer last minute and I figured since I didn't have issues with stainless prior I'd give it a go but it didn't work out. They want me to retest but I thought I would get some outside ideas before hand.

    I'll see about getting some photos, I don't get to practice much but the last time I switched to a more "lazy j" type of movement with the rod and it cleaned up my overhead and horizontal but the vert is still an issue with the 309

    What year and years of apprenticeship did you go thru NAIT? Any chance you remember who your instructors were?
    Click image for larger version

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    I know this is the stuff that's taken for granted when we discover the forgiving nature of the process, but while not all inclusive, as that rod burns, these variables help to control it.
    Weld to the slag. Did you ever do a weld where when you were done the slag stacked so consistently it was to nice too chip? Lol...then you smashed it off anyways to reveal the beauty underneath didn't you? Well, you think of the way the rod burns, the slag and droplet size, the combination of amps, voltage and the arcs length controlling arc force and fluidity as it washes, dilutes and sluggishly fills layer upon layer and solidifies, that the layers of which will be a hot semi molten swirling fluid mush controlled thru consistent movement and motions with slight progressions, you will have things figured out I'm sure.

    They allow a 5/16" fillet. 1/2" plates. Think Chubby Checker and do the twist.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHGXwQeUk7M

    Leave a comment:


  • MetalCaterpillar
    replied
    Originally posted by Noel View Post

    https://www.esabna.com/us/en/product...9l-17-plus.cfm

    A guy looks at a chart and has to ask himself...if the recommended amperage is 55-120 in a flat position, why do they recommend 55-70 for vertical? Your welding a fillet to two 1/2" plates. What if the factory testing plates were 1/4" ?
    Pity the WPS written by a guy who doesn't know better?

    Alberta you say, what part? Don't mean to pry but did you apprentice in the province? If so, where did you go to school? Who you voting for?

    But back to the problem...So you dropping dollar's an failing or just practicing and failing? I'm still thinking you need to post a picture? Two reasons. 1st reason, the different slag characteristics require adjustments/modification/tweaking to supporting and carrying the weld pool. 2nd reason, the AWS Handbook reads something about it being more fluid requiring a slightly larger puddle with a slight weave. As well something about a spray transfer mode. I'm not sure "how" you weld, but on the higher end of the amperage, low arc force, it's frequent side to side in a drunken wobble to build a shelf, moving up steadily piling ripples. Don't drop the rod angle.
    I did apprentice in province and I did both NAIT and SAIT.

    It was just a test that was kind of sprung on me by an employer last minute and I figured since I didn't have issues with stainless prior I'd give it a go but it didn't work out. They want me to retest but I thought I would get some outside ideas before hand.

    I'll see about getting some photos, I don't get to practice much but the last time I switched to a more "lazy j" type of movement with the rod and it cleaned up my overhead and horizontal but the vert is still an issue with the 309

    Leave a comment:


  • Willvis
    replied
    For 7018 Esab is my favourite. I like the little graphite coated tips for the ease of starts. They also run fairly smooth. Second up would be air liquide rods. I find they are often the smoothest but they had some major qc problems for a while. Rods that didn't have the steel centered in the flux and such. Companies were throwing boxes of the stuff away. Lincolns my least favourite, I find the weld to be very rough looking afterwords. Everyone has their own preference though. For 309 its going to be entirely different. I think the bohler stuff is pretty good. Again Usually the only time I use it is when I absolutely have to like on a test. Any other time its tig all the way.

    Leave a comment:


  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    Speaking of rod differences, it's probably mostly personal preference. However, in 7018, I keep both esab atom arc and lincoln Excalibur in my rod oven. It prefer the Excalibur rod, but when welding vertical up, to me at least, the atom arc is superior in control. That's not to say that all of esab rods are better than other brands, just something I've worked out for my own style. So maybe there's something to the differences.

    Leave a comment:


  • Noel
    replied
    We did some testing on different brands of E7018 back in the day. Keep in mind, all electrode brands tested, ESAB, Lincoln, Miller, Hobart, were AWS stamp friendly. When discussing operating parameters, ESAB was the rod given the highest marks for puddle control at higher amperage ranges. When looking at the MSDS, it was discovered a high level of Cobalt listed in ESAB ingredients as well mentioned as a presented hazard?

    As Ryan mentioned, maybe buddy needs to be shown how it's done? Monkey see, monkey do? I'm guessing he's welding it like a E7018 and he needs to weld it like a E6013, or E7014, with a tighter control on amperage, arc length, rod inclination and movement. What do they say about doing the say thing over and over while expecting different results?

    Kind of like asking the question, how do you pass a bend test? The simple response is with a ductile weld deposit. So asking the question how do you achieve penetration into the corner, sit there long enough to make sure it melts.

    As Willvis mentions, there are differences in manufactured product, and how product/consumables are manufactured. It's not a far reach to grasp that they might also require modification in technique to apply them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Willvis
    replied
    Originally posted by MetalCaterpillar View Post
    The province is Alberta and yes it's a stick test not tig, I only mentioned the Tig because I did a pressure test earlier in the week and have no problem doing stick on pipe but suddenly with this plate test it just doesn't want to go.

    I took a closer look at the rods, they're ESAB 309L-17 rods, every brand I look at has them listed as good for horizontal and flat only but when I spoke to the tester about it he assured me they are Infact good for all position. Oddly enough though when I try to do the same test but with Lincoln 309L-16 rods I have zero issues....
    All else fails, sneak in some of the Lincoln rods lol? I haven't used enough of it to say which brands are better but there is a big difference in quality in stainless rod between brands.

    Leave a comment:


  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    Maybe you could ask the tester to give you demonstration since he knows more about the welding rod from esab than esab does.

    Leave a comment:


  • Noel
    replied
    Originally posted by MetalCaterpillar View Post
    The province is Alberta and yes it's a stick test not tig, I only mentioned the Tig because I did a pressure test earlier in the week and have no problem doing stick on pipe but suddenly with this plate test it just doesn't want to go.

    I took a closer look at the rods, they're ESAB 309L-17 rods, every brand I look at has them listed as good for horizontal and flat only but when I spoke to the tester about it he assured me they are Infact good for all position. Oddly enough though when I try to do the same test but with Lincoln 309L-16 rods I have zero issues....
    https://www.esabna.com/us/en/product...9l-17-plus.cfm

    A guy looks at a chart and has to ask himself...if the recommended amperage is 55-120 in a flat position, why do they recommend 55-70 for vertical? Your welding a fillet to two 1/2" plates. What if the factory testing plates were 1/4" ?
    Pity the WPS written by a guy who doesn't know better?

    Alberta you say, what part? Don't mean to pry but did you apprentice in the province? If so, where did you go to school? Who you voting for?

    But back to the problem...So you dropping dollar's an failing or just practicing and failing? I'm still thinking you need to post a picture? Two reasons. 1st reason, the different slag characteristics require adjustments/modification/tweaking to supporting and carrying the weld pool. 2nd reason, the AWS Handbook reads something about it being more fluid requiring a slightly larger puddle with a slight weave. As well something about a spray transfer mode. I'm not sure "how" you weld, but on the higher end of the amperage, low arc force, it's frequent side to side in a drunken wobble to build a shelf, moving up steadily piling ripples. Don't drop the rod angle.

    Leave a comment:


  • MetalCaterpillar
    replied
    The province is Alberta and yes it's a stick test not tig, I only mentioned the Tig because I did a pressure test earlier in the week and have no problem doing stick on pipe but suddenly with this plate test it just doesn't want to go.

    I took a closer look at the rods, they're ESAB 309L-17 rods, every brand I look at has them listed as good for horizontal and flat only but when I spoke to the tester about it he assured me they are Infact good for all position. Oddly enough though when I try to do the same test but with Lincoln 309L-16 rods I have zero issues....

    Leave a comment:


  • Willvis
    replied
    Originally posted by snoeproe View Post

    This was the mentality of many companies years back. Telling their pressure welders that their pressure tickets qualified them to weld to other codes and standards. Truth is being qualified to one code or standard does not qualify you to weld in a different code or standard. As a level 1 inspector I would think you would already understand that? This was merely a company trying to cheat the system. Liabilities have made this practice frowned upon more so these days.
    The structural CWB tickets are renewed every 2 years also. Doesn’t matter if you weld everyday or not. Pressure tickets in most other provinces are renewed every 2 years also. Weather you weld pipe everyday or
    not. Alberta requires jman certification in the trade to weld to codes and standards. Most other provinces do not.
    Pick your province you wish to work in and jump through the hoops that are required to work there. It’s what we do. If you don’t like jumping through hoops to go to work as a welder, it’s time to do something different.
    Of course I understand that. I was reciprocating what Noel was saying about the whole system being a money grab.

    Leave a comment:


  • Noel
    replied
    In 1977, when I received my Journeyman ticket, my final exam was a 2G, 3G, 45, 4G, 3/8" plate, split with root and face bends. 100 question theory exam. The Inter Provincial Red Seal Exam, followed in the afternoon.
    The Alberta Boiler Safety Association "B" was a 2 part test, 1part theory on the codes and standards of the day, and 1 part practical exam pipe in a 6G, from which 8 coupons were prepped and bent. If you didn't pass theory you didn't do the practical.

    In a side note, there was a "A" Pressure exam, an all day affair that is now or had become the ABSA 4 papers Welding Examiner Certification.

    Now I didn't get my "B" until 82. By then, code training was included as a 3rd year component and test when challenging the Journeyman exam, the "B" was a stand alone practical exam for $20 bucks.

    Willvis mentioned, "
    I also had my CWB welding inspector ticket for 6 years and did not use it once." , "For some reason they prefer to let people with a collage education but no welding experience become inspectors instead".

    There's a fine line between the rich and the poor. Memory lane and where that was going suggests they want lots on the bottom, fewer on top. Use it or loose it and if you want to keep using it, it's going to cost you. Almost a tax to work?

    Snoeproe mentioned, "Truth is being qualified to one code or standard does not qualify you to weld in a different code or standard. ".

    In the interest of public safety... codes and standards. Which is my dilemma in this conversation. You want to know the difference between a welder and a doctor? One will fix your rear end for $60 bucks. That's the part I don't get?

    Keep your certification, make me smart because I want a licence to practice.

    Reciprocity. Back in the day, the plate tests, "CJP's", bend test...I'm speaking out loud, what was that about? If you do some thinking about it, not a stretch to say it was based on AWS pre-qualified testing procedures. It's evolution and dilution. The chain reaction and growth in industry standards. Lol...the world needs more lawyers.

    They got workers with out the need for education is what happened? Task specific training. You can be a welder if you have a gift, or practice till you pass?
    If your going to be a CWI, CWB level 1, a Welding Examiner. Looks good on paper. All noble asperations in my books. But we need more welders they say out the sides of the mouth... pay the money, practice till you pass. They create a layer, and promote to fill it.

    https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/...3010.42-e.html

    I'm always amazed at what google finds? But as I was saying...follow the money, think capitalism, and remember the pyramid has a large base. I didn't buy the paper, but I read the books. And I'm part of the base.

    My Alta. JMan and expired "B" hold little paper weight. They found a cheaper way to get guys to do.
    Yet the wonderful thing...Equivalencies. Skills are transferable. I'm guessing if Metal Caterpillar puts his mind to it, he'll figure it out. Today a stick test tomorrow all position FCAW.

    Reminds me of the Star Fish commercial, " Sorry Charlie. We don't want tuna's with good taste, we want tuna's that tastes good.". I think with so many industries with specific needs to be met, they can afford to be choosy on taste. Codes and standards dictate the taste required.


    When I think of the learning competencies required to run a bead, or those required too decide if it's good enough when applied to codes and standards, it seems to me that the less a welder knows, the greater the need for those who decide if it's good enough? 70% is a pass.

    A person might wonder why a dog chases it's tail...It could be delight? Or maybe it's trying to catch up because it thinks it's falling behind. Maybe running fast it's trying to get a head? Doesn't a licence to practice seem like a better approach?



    Leave a comment:


  • snoeproe
    replied
    Originally posted by Willvis View Post

    You are absouletly right and the CWB has got it mastered. Used to be if a guy had his pressure tickets you could weld on pipe brackets no problem. Now suddenly you need a cwb ticket to weld on a bracket? Pressure tickets should override that CWB non-sense but then how would the government make money on all the weld testing? Here's another silly one: Re-testing every 2 years for pressure tickets in Alberta. Now there's another cash grab. So if your doing it day in and day out, you suddenly forget how to weld after 2 years? I like the BC system, keep a log book and all is good. Aren't your first 2 qualifiers on a job going to sort out if you can weld or not anyways. Between all the safety tickets and welding tickets in Alberta a guy probably spend a week out of every year to keep it all active. The price to pay if you want to weld in the oilfield I guess... Pretty hard to keep it all up to date when there's no work there now. Oh, I also had my CWB welding inspector ticket for 6 years and did not use it once. You need to know someone to get into a job. For some reason they prefer to let people with a collage education but no welding experience become inspectors instead of a welder that actually knows what hes doing and looking at.
    .
    This was the mentality of many companies years back. Telling their pressure welders that their pressure tickets qualified them to weld to other codes and standards. Truth is being qualified to one code or standard does not qualify you to weld in a different code or standard. As a level 1 inspector I would think you would already understand that? This was merely a company trying to cheat the system. Liabilities have made this practice frowned upon more so these days.
    The structural CWB tickets are renewed every 2 years also. Doesn’t matter if you weld everyday or not. Pressure tickets in most other provinces are renewed every 2 years also. Weather you weld pipe everyday or
    not. Alberta requires jman certification in the trade to weld to codes and standards. Most other provinces do not.
    Pick your province you wish to work in and jump through the hoops that are required to work there. It’s what we do. If you don’t like jumping through hoops to go to work as a welder, it’s time to do something different.

    Leave a comment:


  • Noel
    replied
    Assuming it is a SMAW test procedure, my advice would be reduce arc force, increase amperage, 90 degree rod inclination, 45 degree rod to joint angle, a slight arc length to "wash" the inside of the corner out and fill in below, travel steadily in progression up the coupon.

    My verts usually include a slight but frequent side to side wobble, to flatten the toes to the sides and preventing wagon tracks from a high crown. It's a globular transfer of metal, similar to E7018. Most stuff the rod in which increases amperage reducing voltage forces. Arc force adds amps so the rod burns more metal causing a faster travel reducing penetration in the avoidance of over filling.

    Just my take on it and I stand corrected in assumption we were talking GTAW.




    Leave a comment:


  • Willvis
    replied
    Originally posted by Noel View Post
    What a money making racket welder testing has become. How much does that test cost a guy?
    You are absouletly right and the CWB has got it mastered. Used to be if a guy had his pressure tickets you could weld on pipe brackets no problem. Now suddenly you need a cwb ticket to weld on a bracket? Pressure tickets should override that CWB non-sense but then how would the government make money on all the weld testing? Here's another silly one: Re-testing every 2 years for pressure tickets in Alberta. Now there's another cash grab. So if your doing it day in and day out, you suddenly forget how to weld after 2 years? I like the BC system, keep a log book and all is good. Aren't your first 2 qualifiers on a job going to sort out if you can weld or not anyways. Between all the safety tickets and welding tickets in Alberta a guy probably spend a week out of every year to keep it all active. The price to pay if you want to weld in the oilfield I guess... Pretty hard to keep it all up to date when there's no work there now. Oh, I also had my CWB welding inspector ticket for 6 years and did not use it once. You need to know someone to get into a job. For some reason they prefer to let people with a collage education but no welding experience become inspectors instead of a welder that actually knows what hes doing and looking at.

    I also wonder what province this is in? I'm going to take a wild guess and say Ontario?

    As to the original question I can't offer to much advice as I've never done this test. I also thought he was talking about Tig at first but realized later it must be stick. Generally on any CWB test you want to run as hot as possible to burn that first pass into the square edge. I realize that is very difficult with ER309l, it runs like crap in vertical... Try running hot and whipping the rod a bit to control the heat? After about half the rod it is probably glowing red and will start to run like crap, might as well throw it out and start with a new one. Amperage around 90 does sound about right though...

    Want to know what I do when I have to do a stainless test on pipe that is tig root, hot pass, and then stick fill and cap? I cheat hahahaha. I will fill that **** pipe up as much as I possible can with Tig. I crank the heat to 140+ and slam that rod in there as fast as I can, at least on the bottom half. Cap it out with stick. Its not that I can't do it, I just refuse to do stupid things just because its a rule. I absolutely hate 309 stick rod. It runs great for flat and horizontal but it shouldn't even be considered an all position rod in my opinion.

    Leave a comment:

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