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Flux Core wire usage in a MultiMatic 215

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Noel View Post
    Well...with all due respect, you need to open a book and do some reading?
    1st picture. I showed the wire. It's label reads self shielding. E71T-GS. The GS is the important part.
    2nd picture. Shows the AWS classification description for that GS designator. Key phrase is other then tensile strength which is specified, all other requirement for this classification are not specified.
    Pictures 3 and 4. It goes to explanation of these classifications and why things are specified.

    You can stick with Lincoln's recommendations...100%. Beats the heck out of thinking for your self? I'll push forward and post the results.

    With all due respect, IDGAF what you say. I'd put you on ignore on this forum if I could because you simply can't have a respectful argument when someone does not agree with you.
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    • #17
      If you need a hurt feelings report I can provide one. My suggestion to read a book was well meaning. It wasn't specifically meant for you either? It was a broad brush stroke. You see how many actually read these posts? I may not teach an old dog a new trick but I hold out hope for the young pups.

      I'm not bowing. I stood my ground. Like it or not, someone learned something.

      In the first picture top left you can see the strips I cut, 5- 1/8" x 3/4" x 5" or close to. Didn't need them. My quick settings in the second picture got me in the ball park enough to say, ok, this is no gas. Having just removed a roll of Aluminum wire I had switched to DCEN but I was still hooked to Argon and thought give it a go. That's the third picture.

      Now you might say I should have tried CO2 or 75/25...I don't have CO2 and with results so apparent I couldn't be bothered. I proved the point I was making in response.

      Once again a show of hands, who actually tried? I stand alone.

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      • #18
        I always support experimentation, folks should always take the time to at least study up on the 'why nots' as well as reading about the 'what not' to does .. Having said that I'm also fine with folks that just decide to go with manufactures established procedures and save their self the wasted time of trying something that has already been tried but just ain't gonna work.

        https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ith-fcaws.aspx


        "Do NOT use an external shielding gas with FCAW-S electrodes (Figure 1). Granted, arc stability may improve by using a shielding gas. However, the arc would then be shielded from the atmosphere. This would not allow aluminum and magnesium from the electrode’s core to react and combine with nitrogen and oxygen from the atmosphere and form compounds. The weld deposit would then end up much higher than expected levels of primarily aluminum, resulting in very brittle, crack sensitive weld metal. Therefore, using a shielding gas with self shielded flux cored electrodes could result in potential weld cracking issues."

        https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...lectrodes.aspx

        "A: The answer to your first question is no. Not only is the use of any type of shielding gas not necessary for Innershield® NR-212, or any other type of self-shielded, flux-cored electrode (FCAW-S), it should not be used. FCAW-S (i.e. Innershield®) electrodes have a tightly controlled and unique core composition and interaction with the atmosphere (compared to gas-shielded, flux-cored wires). They rely on the oxidizing effect of air to produce the desired weld deposit and desired resulting mechanical properties. When you use a shielding gas, you block the arc from the air and prevent the oxidizing reactions. This results in a much higher level of alloys, such as aluminum, in the weld metal, which produces a brittle and crack sensitive weld deposit. While it is likely that the shielding gas improves the stability and operator appeal of NR-212, it also results in an unacceptable weld deposit."


        Kinda like picking up a hot horse shoe. If you tell me ahead of time that its "hot" I'll save myself some pain and just take your word for it.

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        • #19
          "Having said that I'm also fine with folks that just decide to go with manufactures established procedures and
          save their self the wasted time of trying something that has already been tried but just ain't gonna work."


          Now Sandy, that last part... it's a bit condescending? You should have quit while you were ahead. Poke me with a stick.

          You guys read a promotion and marketing article and know enough. I agree, it works for you. You missed posting this part of that article.

          -To do this, the FCAW-S process predominantly uses an aluminum-magnesium deoxidizing and de-nitriding cleansing system (vs. a primarily silicon-manganese system used by the other main arc welding processes). The weld metal is typically composed of an average of
          1% aluminum
          ,
          much more than is present in the weld metal from the other welding processes. However, it should be noted that is
          not in a pure state
          , but rather in the form of beneficial compounds. The aluminum and magnesium atoms enter the weld pool where they attract oxygen and nitrogen atoms and form compounds of aluminum oxide, aluminum nitride and magnesium oxide. These compounds, particularly magnesium oxide, have high melting temperatures. That means that as the molten weld pool starts to cool, they solidify more rapidly (i.e., are “fast freezing”) than other elements in the pool.
          These lightweight, fast freezing compounds float to the weld surface quickly and protect the process from further atmospheric contamination.
          Thus the slag system in effect transforms oxygen and nitrogen, two potential contaminants, into chemical compounds that protect the weld.



          I'm not sure? What do you think it all means?

          Keeping things in a bit of perspective, I'm not welding 3/4" plate and running .045 wire. Insert grain of salt here. .030 in a 135 Hobart, 1/8" material thickness.

          You know, when weld metal becomes harder, it tends to lose ductility. So if you did a tensile test, the material wouldn't neck, stretch and elongate but tensile numbers of yield, degree of elongation and breakage would change. Probably a loss in low weather impacts as well? And I'm sure if you tried welding a thick plate, blasting wire, a long ellipse of a weld pool leaving a wake that pulled in these elements that had formed on the pool surface, with shrinkage pulling from the base material contraction forces...I could see a risk of cracking? Especially if the joint was underfilled on the surface with a lack of middle crown reinforcement.


          "Kinda like picking up a hot horse shoe. If you tell me ahead of time that its "hot" I'll save myself some pain and just take your word for it."

          I give you something with my gloves on, assume it's hot and touch gingerly.

          The problem was my words contradicted the normal understanding. I broke the rules. Questioned authority. Stepped out side the line, and on toes in clarifying and justifying my response. But debate over, who won? The yes or the no vote?
          How my opinion can offend so many?

          Not that you brought it up or anything, but I'm hoping out there in internet space this lands on a screen and someone twitches just a bit. They don't take my word for it they try and prove me wrong. They discover something? Think a little deeper? Ask more questions? Find it interesting? Blah, blah, blah all that stuff.
          And when they do, they post pictures of the results.

          "unacceptable weld deposit". That's a broad brush stroke. All or no good for nothing...?
          What happened to 50 shades of I'm not building the space shuttle? Lol. I'm going out tomorrow and hooking up the mixed gas.







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          • #20
            Just my experience. I have run a lot of gasless wire over the years. This is also called "innershield". I do not use it in the shop but primarily on outdoor jobsites. It does have more spatter than outer shield wires or solid wire. I use it because the conditions warrant it. I am outdoors in the weather and wind. It is called picking the right tool/product for the job to do it efficiently and make money. Of course I would like less spatter but it comes with the territory. In the shop I use solid wire up to .035 or outershield over that.

            I have also found that innershield wires run differently from brand to brand. I like Hobart 21B the best. It seems to run the smoothest for me. The E71T-GS wires I have found to be the worst for me. They make different wires for a reason, you should use the proper wire for the job instead of trying to make something work when a better alternative is available.

            I also understand Noel's point of trying out different things for the sake of finding out what happens when I .......
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            • #21
              Meanwhile, in Noel's garage....

              "What do you mean I CAN'T pick up a hot horseshoe? What if I CAN pick up a hot horseshoe? What if the skin on my hands is resistant to hot steel unlike every other human on the planet? AND, I'm going to back up my statement with some cut and paste google searches and a few pictures from a book using big, fancy words and convolute them so they vaguely relate to the thread, which I'll display as PROOF! ?"

              "...I mean really, what's happened to the education system? Aren't people beating their children anymore? Cmon guys, read a book, or I am the only person left on the planet that can read?"

              "So, to prove my hypothesis to you undereducated non-hackers, I'm going to take a piece of scrap metal, warm it up with an LED flashlight and hold on to it for one ten-thousandth of one second. That will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, prove everyone wrong and me right, once again. And if anyone of you post something that even comes within a city block of contradicting me, either directly or indirectly, I'm going to get butthurt and make an even longer post as punishment for your indiscretions."

              "....don't test me, I mean it....I'll do it....and you'll all be sorry."

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              • #22
                http://www.createdebate.com/debate/s...nd_Small_Minds

                So... you were saying?

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                • #23
                  Clearly I am a small mind and no match for your dazzling intellect.

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                  • #24
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                    • #25
                      Thanks for all your comments. Seems that knowledgable welding folks come in all shapes and sizes. I didn't realize the wading pool was so dangerous. Seems the solution for me is to go the polarity route or wait until Christmas and re-gift.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RWhite View Post
                        Thanks for all your comments. Seems that knowledgable welding folks come in all shapes and sizes. I didn't realize the wading pool was so dangerous. Seems the solution for me is to go the polarity route or wait until Christmas and re-gift.
                        BAHAHA!! I love your sense of humor.
                        Actually thinking about your original post, considering how my machines work, I doubt yours would weld worth a crap if you set it on the synergic mode for solid wire and C-25 and welded with flux core. And if you set it to solid and reversed the polarity then maybe you could dial it in. I would take that wire and save it for that breezy day outdoors welding. Or re-gift at a white elephant party

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                        • #27
                          Now that it's already established why self-shielded FCAW should not be used with a shielding gas, and that it won't help with spatter even if you did, I'll add that before I knew better, I did it through much of a roll. I can confirm the results of it being a waste of gas.

                          Now, to add to the bad news, it also sucks as a bailing wire, because it is tubular and will just crumble when you twist it.

                          So, save it for when you need to weld in the wind. The day will come. Remember to change polarity when you change wire/process.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MAC702 View Post
                            Now that it's already established why self-shielded FCAW should not be used with a shielding gas, and that it won't help with spatter even if you did, I'll add that before I knew better, I did it through much of a roll. I can confirm the results of it being a waste of gas.

                            Now, to add to the bad news, it also sucks as a bailing wire, because it is tubular and will just crumble when you twist it.

                            So, save it for when you need to weld in the wind. The day will come. Remember to change polarity when you change wire/process.
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                            What has been established is questionable?

                            But your opinion of certainty has me asking for further explanation? Could you explain why, some flux core wires that require "none" for gas would use DCEP rather then DCEN?

                            Where single or multi pass comes into the discussion?

                            On the basis of weld procedures, if it isn't prequalified, qualifying the procedure is what's required. You burnt up a roll wire of self shielded with gas. You didn't mention what that was or if it held together or broke?

                            Could it be that as you mentioned, "before I new better", that your welding and understanding of the process has improved to a point of reducing spatter thru parameters and control of the process?



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                            • #29
                              Sorry. Thought it was obvious it made no difference in what I was doing whether the shielding gas was used or not. It was just a waste of gas, in that case just CO2. The job went just fine.

                              You'll have to contact a wire manufacturer as to why they chose a different polarity.

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