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Lincoln Fleetweld 5P compared to 5P+

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  • #16
    Just a fact of personal experience. I was ready to start troubleshooting the old MM200--thought it had finally given up delivering gas to the nozzle intermittently. I thought of those welds when someone (I think it may have been Noel) posted the picture of Santa Claus in December, with the caption, "I've seen your welds; you're getting a grinder for Christmas!" (Not that I'm incapable of making welds that need a grinder without help from the materials ).

    I think the Chinese will make whatever sells (and there's nothing wrong with that), and there are millions of people in America who will buy the cheapest thing in the store; someone has to satisfy that market. They make all the iphones and ipads, to the best of my knowledge, and those seem to work pretty well. It is sad that there seem to be few things that we can make at competitive prices in this country any more, but I wonder if we've done that to ourselves with taxes and regulations. There are a few notable exceptions--Ruger comes to mind-- where we seem to be able to be very competitive. But overall, we often seem to be engaged in the proverbial "race to the bottom".

    Reminds me of the Japanese import stuff for the first decade following WWII. They thought we wanted cheap junk, and were happy to make it for us. "Made in Japan" back then had the same or worse connotation as "Made in China" today. When they found that wasn't what we wanted, along came Honda, Toyota, Yamaha, Sony, Nikon, Canon......and now "Made in Japan" speaks of highest world-class quality. And ironically, it was in large part driven by W. Edwards Deming, an American whose application of what he called the Shewhart Cycle was sort of ignored here, but rapidly adopted by the Japanese. To this day, the Deming Award is a very prestigious accomplishment for Japanese business.

    I suspect that most of those on this forum don't always buy the cheapest thing on the shelf, which is why Miller, Lincoln, ESAB, etc. are still in business.

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    • #17
      Every filler we use here is Hobart these days. They seem to be higher quality. I would more than likely do the same on stick rods that I kept on hand.... if I ever got thru the piles of crap I have had for life, it seems.
      Plus Miller/Hobart have other brands too.

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      • #18
        That's two votes for Hobart rod. I'll have to grab some and see how they chooch.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
          Where are you at? I have a small rod oven sitting around, only holds 10 lbs. Works really good... I really want a bench top size one. Somewhere in the 200 lbs range so I can buy larger cans.
          I'm near Abilene, TX. It is about 3hrs west of Dallas/Ft Worth.

          I thought about maybe making a rod oven that way it would have slots for the 50lb cans to slide into. That way I don't have to fiddle with taking the rods out of the cans to load it. It is on my to do list LOL. Figure I'll frame a box with angle iron and then put a thin sheet metal skin on it. Then put a heavier box inside with ceramic fiber insulation between the two boxes. The inner box I'd just run an electric stove element in the bottom with a guard around it like expanded metal. Then a thermistor to monitor the temperature and control the electric stove element with a contactor or I'd use an IGBT (I have some Monster size IGBTs I can use). Was going to display the internal temperature on the outside with a 7-segment display or use a 4 line by 20 character LCD with some buttons to allow adjustments for the rod oven set point... That at least is the plan down the road. For now, just need a small oven to keep my 7018 dry.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Aeronca41 View Post
            I finally got so frustrated I went and bought a roll of Hobart wire. No more issues since. I threw the Radnor away, and obviously haven't bought any since.
            When I had a MM140C mig it came with Hobart wire. Once I realized most of my applications exceeded its ability I sold it and bought a MM252. I continue to use Hobart wire and have never had any issues with it. I like the Hobart wire and do use their stick electrodes often. But wanted to get some Excaliber rods and Fleetweld rods for when I'm welding something that I want to support some weight, like my roof.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Noel View Post
              I don't do cheap when safety is an issue.

              I don't think the two necessarily relate? Other wise we'd all be hostage to big pharma? Then again, I'm not ordering my drugs on line either? But I did order a roll of wire recently that met an AWS spec.? No name and cheap. If the darn thing was made in China, with a package that said made in USA because it was rolled onto small spools from a big drum, slapped with a label, what would we have to say about it? Probably good price.
              What I mean by "don't do cheap when safety is an issue" is that I'm not just going to go pick up a rod I have that is 10 years old, not stored properly to weld a column to a floor plate, nor anything else that I don't need the quality of the rod affecting the integrity of the weld. I'd just by a new box. However, I do want whatever that new box is to be a good brand that would be x-ray quality.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by FusionKing View Post
                Every filler we use here is Hobart these days. They seem to be higher quality.
                That is good to hear. Once I get things setup with the DC idealarc I'll have to do a direct comparison and see how they compare.
                I do wish they had their 7018 in something sealed better than a taped plastic container though.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Aeronca41 View Post

                  But overall, we often seem to be engaged in the proverbial "race to the bottom".

                  And ironically, it was in large part driven by W. Edwards Deming, an American whose application of what he called the Shewhart Cycle was sort of ignored here, but rapidly adopted by the Japanese. To this day, the Deming Award is a very prestigious accomplishment for Japanese business.

                  I suspect that most of those on this forum don't always buy the cheapest thing on the shelf, which is why Miller, Lincoln, ESAB, etc. are still in business.

                  Couldn't agree more. All in the race to make a buck, then more bucks. And it seems it's hard, getting harder to do that? We don't raise the bar we lower it so more can get across.

                  With Aeronca41's mention about W. Edwards Deming I've been doing some reading about the man. Impressive. That fella was a thinker.

                  While I would suspect the Radnor brand might grab small points in market share due to pricing, meeting the minimum of AWS requirements in product standards, maybe on some level, the bigger players in the game up them? Poor feeding was mentioned regarding a roll of wire. I've seen it. Felt the pain it caused.

                  Bringing up W. Edwards Deming, when your gathered around the table discussing a $300,000 yearly consumable cost that can be reduced by $50,000, it becomes a harder sell. No one documents the welder pulling off a roll due to a poorly wound spool. But someone has to account for it?
                  Management does however comment when he hasn't completed the required inches in a day? Lol... with welding machines that record arc on time?

                  Made in China, Mexico, India, Canada, USA...someone still makes a buck, and someone still slaves to scratch out a living.

                  I looked at the label on a roll of Silicon Bronze bought cheaply on Amazon. Made in China. I have no complaints on the wire, but who ever was in charge of setting the machine that spools it could have used more training? Or did someone figure out that if we slack the tension ever so slightly we can save 20' of wire from the spool and save a few bucks over the course of a year? I don't know?

                  Same could be said about the guy who runs the mix master stirring the constituents of a slag coating? Could explain why the local bakery's bread has porosity holes?

                  I mentioned sitting around a table discussing consumable costs. Some one produced a pail of electrodes thrown out with 40 to 80% remaining. Were talking Lincoln Electrodes 5p+, not Radnor. My suggestion was don't change the rods change the instructors. All we had to do was skid one and the consumable cost concern was solved? Skid three or four, we could show a profit.

                  As cruel as it sounded, the point was, if your not taught to know better, your more likely to know less. Doing a root pass if your running hot, and after the rod heats up, key hole enlarges, no longer fills no matter the whipping/dragging, use of arc control...the guy stops and pops in a fresh rod. Bad rods? Bad welder? Bad instruction?

                  "
                  What I mean by "don't do cheap when safety is an issue" is that I'm not just going to go pick up a rod I have that is 10 years old, not stored properly to weld a column to a floor plate, nor anything else that I don't need the quality of the rod affecting the integrity of the weld. I'd just by a new box. However, I do want whatever that new box is to be a good brand that would be x-ray quality.
                  "

                  Clint... Somethings improve with age and somethings just get older. I'm not a drinker but they say the best Scotch is 20 years old? And b
                  est before dates,
                  some cut the mold from the cheese and keep eating?
                  We all have our worries. I get it.
                  Me...I have 20 year old rods, some in original packs, some opened and taped shut so they don't fall out. If you want, I'll take a picture of them to prove it but honestly, last time I looked they haven't changed. The packages did however have a lot of shop dust on top.

                  W. Edwards Deming...
                  Rational behavior requires theory. Reactive behavior requires only reflex action.


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                  • #24
                    Hobart does sell their rod in sealed cans, but probably not at tractor supply. You'll almost certainly have to go to your LWS supply for it. Honestly, the only reason I know Hobart sells it in sealed cans is because I went and looked on their webpage this morning after I posted up I was going to get some to try out. So there ya go man! It's on my list for my next LWS trip.

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                    • #25
                      Just a note on 6010 for structural. There's a lot more to it then just the tensile strength. 6010 makes brittle welds, I think partly due to the fast freeze nature and partly due to the hydrogen embritlement. Structural code does not it allow for this reason. You'll also never see a process pipe procedure b31.3 or boiler procedure b31.1 where it used more then the root and hot pass. Subsequent passes with 7018 also help anneal the 6010 passes. Pipeline is more lenient, the pipe isnt under as much stress when its burried in the ground. Some of the large oil companies want to get rid of 6010 altogether. I don't see why? When do you hear of welds breaking? Ruptured are always cause the pipes thinned out or a piece of equipment hit the pipe.

                      Anyways as Noel said its probably fine for stuff around your house or farm. Still I wouldn't use it to weld up a trailer or something like that.
                      www.silvercreekwelding.com

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                      • #26
                        I learned a lot about wires and electrodes when I worked at the local welding supplier. Most brands we sold had USA Made and China made in the same brand lines. Lincoln wires were mexico and Hobart had the china wires along with inweld and crown. But Some Hobart was USA made as well as some Lincoln and Inweld electrodes. I guess its how much you want to spend. I have never had a problem with china wire in my shop as my miller ran it well. But some 7018 was hit and miss...Bob
                        Bob Wright

                        Spool Gun conversion. How To Do It. Below.
                        http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...php?albumid=48

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Willvis View Post
                          Some of the large oil companies want to get rid of 6010 altogether. I don't see why? When do you hear of welds breaking? Ruptured are always cause the pipes thinned out or a piece of equipment hit the pipe.
                          .
                          That's how I got my job at Marathon Oil. They were doing away with 6010 and the guys couldn't pass the test with 7018. I went in and the tester said I hope you can weld 7018 and I said so whats the problem. That was all I ever used. I never ran 6010 or 6011 on any job I ever worked in the prev 20 years. Exxon/Mobile is all 7018 or TIG..Bob
                          Bob Wright

                          Spool Gun conversion. How To Do It. Below.
                          http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...php?albumid=48

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                          • #28
                            You know the problem with being Noel is that Noel likes to speak.

                            Willvis. There was a time I knew less about codes and cared less even more. All about welding and laying nice uniform beads.
                            All good things came to an end.
                            Qualify the procedure. Prove it works. That's where it starts.

                            I could tell you E6010 stories, all based around that simple statement and the codes. Prove it works.
                            I disagree with some of what you mention. I also liked some of what you said.

                            But because you brought it up, and because I like to speak...(some might say argue a point to death) the mention "
                            6010 makes brittle welds", I disagree with that. Not because of what AWS says for mechanical properties, but because I knocked the flux off a few and with straight polarity managed an open groove butt weld in the 3G that passed a bend test. it wasn't pretty, but it bent with out breaking. I do remember a squeal as it push through the rollers? Hardness? Toughness? Or was it brittle?
                            Hard and tough was my guess.

                            "I think partly due to the fast freeze nature and partly due to the hydrogen embrittlement."

                            You want to dig a bit deeper into this? You know, most never fail a bend test with a face bend, usually a root that opens up? So let me ask the questions? Which root would yield greater hardness? A fast skinny one, whipped in hot and fast or a plumper root, watch the key hole walk the dog? How about the root opening and the land thickness for heat sink? Quenching? Contraction forces?
                            The micro structure in the bottom edge of the root land when fused while burning a key hole? What do you see? Has it cooled to give a strong bond or does it hold a loose grip?

                            I wanted to say which do you think would produce a greater hydrogen level...I'm not sure it's a good question? Arc length and voltage come into play. And it probably wouldn't to us any good to discuss how the different melting/ crucible cup plays a role in arc transfer to explain some of it?

                            A better one might be, which would off gas hydrogen better? A weld that cools quick or one cooling slowly? Thinking past that. If it was all welded with E6010, instead of E7018, what would change? Each pass off gassing the previous, refining grain structure, stronger and tougher by most accounts, but less ductile, I'd say that?

                            You mention trailer. My little utility trailer welded with AC and E6011 has proved to be the bomb. But if I was welding a low boy manufactured out of a high strength alloyed steel, E6010 wouldn't be my 1st choice either? It wouldn't be well matched to the material for mechanical and chemical properties. Bump the game and you have to give greater considerations to the HAZ. Alloying of modern steel is where low hydrogen deposits rule.

                            "You'll also never see a process pipe procedure b31.3 or boiler procedure b31.1 where it used more then the root and hot pass."

                            Now that makes E6010 sound like a crappy rod to weld with... doesn't it?

                            However, the reason for it's limited use is more complicated then that. That reason is the materials being joined and the chemistry of the material, mechanical and chemical properties to meet service requirements. So yea, if you can't prove it does, it doesn't qualify. If you can, you pass go and get $200. The code has allowances.

                            "111 WELDED JOINTS 111.1 General Welded joints may be used in any materials allowed by this Code for which it is possible to qualify WPSs, welders, and welding operators in conformance with the rules established in Chapter V. All welds shall be made in accordance with the applicable requirements of Chapter V."

                            Bob reminded us with, "They were doing away with 6010 and the guys couldn't pass the test with 7018."

                            That's a fact. Lol. Probably still the case? My Journeyman test included it in a 3G, root fill cap.
                            Kind of explains how GMAW took such a foot hold in fab shops and doing business in the piping industry. But it's still a test to pass and still being used to qualify job applicants.

                            Codes and Standards. I sleep better knowing they're in place.
                            The link is for those who might need help falling asleep.

                            http://www.itok-co.com/uploads/image...20-%202008.pdf

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                            • #29
                              Bob, I did not know that about the petrochemical industry. We have all the big names here, majority of the industry in my area is petrochemical. I do zero work out in the plants. I have no interest of doing work out there and I don't care to jump through the hoops to do any work out there. I do, however, do some work for contractors on stuff for working in the plants. Very little of that comes with any sort of welding code or design even. A guy that was hungry enough could be as busy as he wanted to be out there though.

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                              • #30
                                I never ran into weld codes for the first 1/2 of my career. I started in my dads trailer shop and for 8 years it was all mig or 7018. He pretty much beat 7018 into me. You are going to learn how to use it, forget that other stuff. Well I got more than pretty good with it. Then 8 years in the Sheet metal union. All mig and 7018 no problems there. Then 8 years in the bathtub factory as a millwright. All 7018 until I finally got the boss to get us a Deltaweld 452 and then a more portable Miller invertor and more 7018. Then off to the refinery for 10 years. Got called on a welding job. But first you had to take a 3 hour written test to even get to strike an arc. Don't score an 85 or higher on the written you can't take the hands on welding test. So off to the bookstore to buy $80 worth of welding books to pound into my head. Got a 93 on the test and off to the welding test. I walked in and there was about 100 test pipes on a table. All fails either visual or xray. The company welding insp sat there the whole time staring into the back of my hood. I could see is face and him picking his nose. 6G, 6" sch 80 pipe, beveled 45 degrees, 1/8 gap and no land. All 1/8" 7018. There was to be no burn thru on the inside it had to be smooth with no visible grapes hanging. And complete filling of the outside, smooth with no undercut. You pass a visual and then it went off to xray. I never sweat so much in my life. But hey i practiced for 24 years. Passed the test and gave up the welding career there. I bid on an operations job as I didn't want weekends off. I had my own shop and needed to buy supplies and the weekends everyone was closed and i was happy with Thursday and Fridays off. Retired from there after 10 years. Spent 6 mos as a robot welder tech welding Harley Davidson parts. And working weekends as a Tool and Die welder in that plant because the t&d guys didn't want to weld. Then to the Ohio River welding on Marathon gas tankers. All 7018 and you had to test with a Coast Guard guy watching. No problems there. Same thing they were phasing out 6010 and going to 7018 and their guys couldn't pass. That was short lived I didn't want to be in the middle of the river bobbing up and down like a cork in the middle of the winter welding. So off to the Compressed gas equipment plant. Gas flux core almost 100%. Giant pipes that needed x rayed and pressure tested and everything was strict code. No going around anything. Every weld had to be machine polished with a wire wheel and smooth and pretty. The only stick welding that was done was 6010 on water piping and it was pressure tested. My first little tank was a 6" dia thing and the boss said here are the parts get it done and we test it to 1,200 lbs. I said with a mig and he said did I hire the wrong guy?. Big gulp I had almost zero dual shield welding under my belt except for passing the Coast guard overhead test on the river. Not a problem got it done and it passed. I did mostly ladders and platforms with my new Miller 252 and .045 dual shield. I also welded up radiator tanks for the 6,000 hp gas engines some tanks were 30 feet long from 20" pipe. Great career and glad its done. I hope the next generation has as much fun as I beat my body to near death doing what was asked. I just sold my personal miller 185 mig to a farmer in another state. But I still have my miller Thunderbolt and lots of 7018. Hope I didn't bore you guys...Bob
                                Bob Wright

                                Spool Gun conversion. How To Do It. Below.
                                http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...php?albumid=48

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