Lincoln Fleetweld 5P compared to 5P+

[clint738]

I'm curious if my local area just never stocks Fleetweld 5P "red rod" or is the stuff just getting harder to find?
I saw I could order it online at IOC but I don't want 4 - 50lb containers (their minimum order).

While it has been a while since I compared 5P and 5P+, I do recall somewhere back in my mind I made a note that I liked 5P better than 5P+, but I can't remember why as that has been 20 years ago. I think I saw some 5P+ a few places, but not the regular 5P red rod.

What are the thoughts on this forum about the 2 rods, only considering Lincoln rods here.

The application is rusted materials, pipe welding, structural.

I saw some 7010 and 8010 rods from online retailers, but have never used those rods. How similar would they be to 5P and can they be used in the same applications?

Thanks!

[griff01]

I'm curious if my local area just never stocks Fleetweld 5P "red rod" or is the stuff just getting harder to find?
I saw I could order it online at IOC but I don't want 4 - 50lb containers (their minimum order).

While it has been a while since I compared 5P and 5P+, I do recall somewhere back in my mind I made a note that I liked 5P better than 5P+, but I can't remember why as that has been 20 years ago. I think I saw some 5P+ a few places, but not the regular 5P red rod.

What are the thoughts on this forum about the 2 rods, only considering Lincoln rods here.

The application is rusted materials, pipe welding, structural.

I saw some 7010 and 8010 rods from online retailers, but have never used those rods. How similar would they be to 5P and can they be used in the same applications?

Thanks!

To me, the slag is easier to clean off when using the 5P+. I have used both, however, I prefer the 5P+.
In the name of transparency, I learned to weld with the 5P+ which is likely the reason I like it over the 5P.

Griff

[Noel]

Boy oh boy...a memory from the old days of transformer rectifiers. From back in the day when 7 herbs and spices were a salty mix of flavor and the coating crispy.

The product changed and the reason was inverter technology. Original inverter design was a high frequency AC current that cause the Red Lincoln E6010 to flicker on and off due to no arc stabilizers (potassium) like a E6011. That's the simple story.
Comparing the two, the red appeared slightly thicker in the coating. Early versions going back in time actually had asbestos which seemed to improve current flow by aiding in the crucible cup as the electrode was consumed. Arc voltage was more aggressive as well with a transformer rectifier and those red rods froze faster with flicking offering a greater weld pool viscosity control over a broader range. More forgiving with less skill need to control them.

The 5P+ was a product designed for inverter usage with different volt/amp curves. With a lighter coating with increased arc stabilizers added, the arc isn't as aggressive, but still digs, the rod freezes quickly, but appears slightly more fluid, although invertors allow for thickening with arc control, most found the change to be a struggle in relearning how to weld. Controlling the length of arc and amperage had to be to a tighter tolerance.

An almost moot point is there reduction in moisture content when the box is opened. Changing the formula in the coating had the effect of reducing something to avoid a rod that was to fat in the coating. That is why KFC chicken is almost disappointing these days, but if you grew up not knowing the difference, it still isn't half bad once in a while to eat?


As far as 7010/8010 goes...that's tensile strength. If they have the red flux coating, I'm almost sure it will be the old recipe. But as time goes by, technology changes, you will find less and less of them around. One day they could be like an old collectible?

[clint738]

In the name of transparency, I learned to weld with the 5P+ which is likely the reason I like it over the 5P.

Griff

Griff, see I'm the opposite as I learned to weld with 5P red rod which is why I liked it somewhat over 5P+.
Also, all our welding trucks (for welding at oil rigs) always had 50lb boxes of Fleetweld 5P in multiple sizes along with several 50lb containers of Excaliber 7018. It was several years before I first saw a 5P+ rod but always stayed with what I knew.

Hey Noel, that is interesting about the 5P+ being more specific for the inverter technology. I guess that all the more will reinforce my desire to stick with the 5P as I just picked up a round top old Lincoln IdealArc 250 AC/DC over the weekend from my dad and it welded 5P like butter.
I knew the 7010/8010 are higher tensile strength 70k and 80k, but I wasn't sure of their specific applications?

Would it be horrible to try to use 7010/8010 rods on rusty materials? I have a feeling they would be fine on maybe pipe and structural welding but just wanted to check the thoughts on the guys here that use the stuff and know what it is best for.

I am finally no longer confined to my tiny 20' x 20' shop. My new place has a 50' x 20' area I will use to weld in, however, I think the building has structural issues as the roof is framed with 6" c-purlin and some have a bad twist in them.
So I need to jack up the c-purlin to remove the twist and then box in the purlin and box in the c-purlin trusses to strengthen the roof. Considering running new columns and I-beam to support under the purlins and also serve as a lifting point for a trolley/hoist.

Lots of projects ahead.

[Noel]

"Would it be horrible to try to use 7010/8010 rods on rusty materials? I have a feeling they would be fine on maybe pipe and structural welding but just wanted to check the thoughts on the guys here that use the stuff and know what it is best for."

Nah...not as horrible as you might think. Some where between the farmers field and construction codes is a balance where it's about sticking two pieces together rather then mechanical properties and engineered out comes. A 1/8" 6010 will weld just like a 1/8" 7010 because it's the mechanical properties of the wire that's changed not the flux coating. However...welding two pieces together with a high strength filler just means the material next to it is the weaker link. Part of the reason welds don't break but the material does.

While we tend to see steels as steels, matching the rod with consideration towards composition of mechanical and chemical properties yields a better more consistent result. Higher tensile strengths may create a problem if you look past sticking two pieces together. As example, ductility, hardness, impact properties, grain growth, HAZ issues.

6010, to 10010, look at the composition of the elements that create the wire, and compare them to know composition of the materials in higher strength steels for changes.
Other wise, it could be the weld that fails not the material? A weld that's hard will resist, a weld that soft becomes the crease. It's a bigger picture that I tend to simplify, but I think you get it?

On another note about the 5P compared against the 5P+, with the less aggressive arc of a 5p+, you'll notice less hydrogen build up. Higher strength materials leads to greater concerns about embrittlement and cracking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjz8eh3uxkU

Now arguable, cellulose is cellulose, but welding parameters, arc lengths, speed of travel, also contribute to this condition. The 6010 cellulose is acidic. It makes gas. 7018 is basic, like a Rolaid's, it neutralizes acids.
It's as complicated or as simple as you want to make it?

One thing is certain, acid rich foods are for the young with stronger stomachs, but I do remember days of endless pizza and beer with fondness, just like those 5P. Good luck and remember Rolaids have a purpose like E7018 in acid reduction.

[clint738]

While we tend to see steels as steels, matching the rod with consideration towards composition of mechanical and chemical properties yields a better more consistent result. Higher tensile strengths may create a problem if you look past sticking two pieces together. As example, ductility, hardness, impact properties, grain growth, HAZ issues.

On another note about the 5P compared against the 5P+, with the less aggressive arc of a 5p+, you'll notice less hydrogen build up. Higher strength materials leads to greater concerns about embrittlement and cracking.

I haven't really taken time to think about the mechanical and chemical properties, but I can see in my case 8010 would certainly be overkill and like you mentioned even though the weld has higher strength, the material will be the weak point.

I do have to give a big THANK YOU to my local Air Gas. I was pricing out some Fleetweld 6010 5P, but they didn't have it in stock, only the 50lb containers of 5P+ which were priced pretty high at ~$4 / lb. I explained my fondness of the old "red rod" Fleetweld and he offered to give me a box of Radnor 6010 5P red rod to try.

He said Lincoln makes the rods for Radnor? Can anyone confirm that is true?

So I drove straight over during lunch break thinking he was going to give me a small 5lb box of Radnor 6010, but turns out he gave me a 10lb box for FREE! On the shelf that would have been like $40 so quite pleased with his willingness to help me out. I do have a small bit of Fleetweld 6010 5P in an airtight container (probably 20 years old) to compare this Radnor 6010 with. I'm looking forward to seeing if I finally found a good source of 6010 red rods, even if it is Radnor. I'll just need to see if it welds the same.

Has anyone used the Radnor 6010 5P rods? What has been your experience?

[clint738]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjz8eh3uxkU

That was a great video! I really liked the demonstration of the hydrogen in the mineral oil.
Visually demonstrates why preheat and post heating are so important.

[Noel]

AWS say if it meets a standard of product it's a 6010. I'm sure the Radnor does, although the coating recipe could be different or vary from the 5P?

Same could be said for this recipe to make chicken taste KFC?
I'm thinking however that if you dipped pigeon instead of chicken you could fool some people? Hungry is hungry and catching a break getting a free meal doesn't hurt and by my accounting is a good thing. Go feed that steel.

[ryanjones2150]

Everything radnor I've encountered has been Chinese. I can't speak with authority on that though. And as far as the Lincoln rod I have on hand, every metal can is made in USA, every plastic box rod I have is hecho in Mexico. I just looked, so I can somewhat speak to the accuracy of that tid but.

[clint738]

Everything radnor I've encountered has been Chinese. I can't speak with authority on that though. And as far as the Lincoln rod I have on hand, every metal can is made in USA, every plastic box rod I have is hecho in Mexico. I just looked, so I can somewhat speak to the accuracy of that tid but.

Thanks for the info Ryan! Can't beat the accuracy of reading the label right off the container.
Guess I'll look around a bit for a good online supplier and then buy a few metal cans of Excaliber and Fleetweld when I get close to modifying my building. I don't do cheap when safety is an issue, so I'll stick with made in USA. Also need to make or buy a rod oven to keep the 7018 in good shape and then need to get some wiring done for the old welder to run in the new shop.

[ryanjones2150]

Where are you at? I have a small rod oven sitting around, only holds 10 lbs. Works really good. I just upgraded to a slightly larger 50lbs rod oven. I had to upgrade because sometimes I need 1/8, sometimes I need 3/32. I buy the rod in 10 lbs cans, so I had to get a bigger one. I really want a bench top size one. Somewhere in the 200 lbs range so I can buy larger cans.

[Noel]

http://www.airgas.com/product/Welding-Products/Filler-Metal/Stick-Electrode-%28SMAW%29/Stick-Electrode---Carbon-Steel/p/RAD64001014

Stuff meets AWS spec. I'm not sure who actually makes it but I've also never used it.
I'm not sure how you figure made in China...? Especially since there is a Radnor Pennsylvania? Radnor doesn't sound Chinese to me? Not that Chinese product is necessarily a bad thing is it if it's made to AWS spec.??? But I get the Made in America show.

Who stick's E6010 in a rod oven?

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/pages/storing-electrodes-detail.aspx

Some like Ford's, some like Dodge some like Chev. Everyone else would rather drive something then walk it seems?

"

I don't do cheap when safety is an issue".

I don't think the two necessarily relate? Other wise we'd all be hostage to big pharma? Then again, I'm not ordering my drugs on line either? But I did order a roll of wire recently that met an AWS spec.? No name and cheap. If the darn thing was made in China, with a package that said made in USA because it was rolled onto small spools from a big drum, slapped with a label, what would we have to say about it? Probably good price.

[Aeronca41]

Radnor is Airgas's house brand, in fact named after Radnor, PA. I bought a 10-12 lb. roll of their ER70S-6, stamped made in China, but they assured me it was good wire (naturally!). Most of it was, but every now and then I would start putting down horrible looking welds; looked like someone turned off the gas. I quickly found that if I would pull 20' or so of the wire out and toss it, and start again, it would be fine. I finally got so frustrated I went and bought a roll of Hobart wire. No more issues since. I threw the Radnor away, and obviously haven't bought any since.

[ryanjones2150]

He clearly said he wanted a rod oven for 7018, not 6010.

Radnor maybe a town in PA, but it's the Airgas house label name. Not sure when the last time you were in an Airgas branch, but everything with the radnor name on it I found was made in China. I didn't say it was bad. I said it was made in China.

And he said the Airgas sales rep told him Lincoln makes the rod for their house brand. Maybe they do, so it's either made in America or made in Mexico. But since everything else I saw in their branch with the radnor name on it was made in China, I passed that information on.

"Craftsman" "crescent" "vise-grip" doesn't sound Chinese either does it? Any guess where those brands are made?

[ryanjones2150]

I'm glad you posted that info about the wire, Wayne. I think you and I have talked about that before. If the wire is that inconsistent, one can only figure the rod is as well. It's probably a safe bet.