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  • Future welders - (students)

    Probably way off topic but I'll try - Miller admin please delete it if I am out of order.

    Had a bbq weekend with the usual suspects and got to talking about the younger
    generation.

    My master plumber friend mentioned that his nephew won't be following his footsteps into
    the trade.

    His nephew's comment was " I can do everything you can with my smart phone.
    There's an ap for everything".

    My friend thought for a bit and then said - "ok - show me the ap that unclogs your toilet"

    Got me thinking about the future
    (Beers can be both good and bad for the thought process).

    Got to thinking about the next generation of amazing welding equipment.
    When I started out of college (1974) , the company I worked for had an Airco Heliwelder IV.

    Ran on single phase 240 volts AC and gave us DC and 60 Hz AC HF with foot control.
    Had to ball the tungsten before tigging AC.

    The company welder was my mentor and taught me so much for a case
    of beer each time I had questions.

    This help was priceless.
    This started my interest in welding and I have been learning for 44 years - (I still stink)

    Today Miller has state of the art equipment and I have my two Dynasty welders which are
    better than I will ever be.

    My plumber friend got me thinking about the next generation of welders (people).

    Please forgive my ignorance in asking these questions.

    1 - Are there still schools teaching welding technology?
    In my area there is Eastern Technology in Willow Grove, PA.
    I have taken 2 classes there to improve my ignorance.

    https://www.eastech.org/continuing-e...ding-training/

    2 - What do the other members ( and Miller ) on this forum think of the future of the new
    students.

    I wish I had the Miller Forums when I was a younger ( and dumber student ).

    This posting is not without a self-serving announcement.
    I need to find someone to will my welding equipment to.

    Granted it may be a while as I am 66, but I really
    want to give it to someone who can benefit.

    My relatives are a bunch of non-techies who got beaten up with a stupid stick.

    PS - When did Miller start the Forums?
    Miller Dynasty 350, Dynasty 210 DX, Hypertherm 1000, Thermal Arc GTSW400, Airco Heliwelder II, oxy-fuel setup, metal cutting bandsaw, air compressor, drill press, etc.

    Call me the "Clouseau" of welding !

  • #2
    From what I've seen from the co-op students my company has hired...the future looks a little bleek..schools around mass seem to spend more time on stick and mig than heliarc..and 2/3s of the kids I've come across barely care to put in the effort to truly learn the trade, nevermind work hard..hope this isn't the case all over...

    And I'd be happy to help aleaviall your will issues
    Charlie S.
    Miller AlumaPower 450 MPa
    Lincoln cv-300
    Miller Dynasty 400

    Comment


    • #3
      1 - Are there still schools teaching welding technology?

      > They're around. And sadly, they have become businesses. Ponder that and know it's true. Education costs money. Lots of it. You won't run a welding program unless you got the potential to make back the expenses through enrollment dollars., subsidies, grant money.

      Then you got the quality to factor in. Monkey see monkey now doing? Some know the stuff and some know how to present the stuff. Some can do both. Not every one is a Johnny Carson.
      Education is a show and what the audience gets for actual value can be quite different depending on the presenter.

      And not all businesses are run well, keep up to the times, or are worth the price in what they provide for service to the customer. Something is better then nothing, and new is always seen as a blinding wow, when there is nothing to compare it to? I'll say this, I've known educators who were extremely popular, but their students were hammers when tested?
      But as the kid mentioned, the free education is out there, and it comes with a phone?
      Look around you. 1 to 10. The 1's stand out, the 10's stand apart, everything else is the middle. Cops, robbers, lawyers and educators. All from the middle.


      In my area there is Eastern Technology in Willow Grove, PA.
      I have taken 2 classes there to improve my ignorance.

      https://www.eastech.org/continuing-e...ding-training/

      > Well, scale of 1 to 10...?
      How was your Instructor's knowledge of the materials being presented?
      Was his presentation and delivery alive and interesting or boring as ****?
      Did you receive explanations and a reasonable understand when asking a question or a you don't need to know that response?
      Did you learn anything that made the application easier?
      Was it progressive learning building and advancing through the program?
      Was what you learned, being taught, shown or explained as transferable?
      Did it fill the need or was it encouragement to learn more?

      Quite frankly, I'd like to see the lesson plans. Educational outline of the presentation for the materials. Facilities and shop space. As well, since certification comes into play, how it's addressed in the process?


      2 - What do the other members ( and Miller ) on this forum think of the future of the new
      students.

      > Come on now...do you really want us to tell you our fears for the future? Because I have to say it looks bleak. Stupid has raised more stupid. It's all around us? It's daily life. It's normal and expected. It's technology.

      I wish I had the Miller Forums when I was a younger ( and dumber student ).

      > You had better. You had books and a library. People who took pride in learning to advance in a field of interest. Who mentored. Opportunities for advancement. The idea you could be president.

      This posting is not without a self-serving announcement.
      I need to find someone to will my welding equipment to.

      > Hmm? Thoughtful? How about you think this through a bit...?
      I'm sure if you go looking for a school or training facility who would benefit from that wonderful donation you'd find one. The more disadvantaged, marginalized the people being trained, the better it might serve in that way. It could also hold no advantage other then a tax receipt when received? A program teaching basic skills need 5 small transformer buzz boxes that will never fail not a high priced inverter that craps a board they can't afford to fix?
      You could also say you want it sold and a scholarship benefit created? Or sold and directed in a given way to aid more people?
      But I like the way your thinking. Time goes by you never know who might hold an interest? But, If the kids don't want it, don't see a use for it with their noses in the phone and a busy life paying for adventures they can't afford, I'd rest in the ground easier knowing something good became of what my hard work bought rather then $.10 on the dollar at auction? How about on your passing a notice/notices will be placed in local papers that anyone interested has to write a 500 word essay on how this equipment will be used to benefit others and the best one wins?

      Balling Tungsten...those were the days.
      Live long and prosper.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is a great thread and I hope every young person should read it. It applies to every trade that requires a skill set and training. As a professional pilot who works with young loaders who are embarking on their educations, it's not hard to notice that college isn't for everyone. Kids nowdays don't spend enough time in high school trying to figure out what they want to do for a living and pursue their passions. They usually end up getting some kind of college degree that is totally useless and unsaleable. When they finish college, many are well over 100K in college debt with little in the way to pay it off.
        For the most part I am very disappointed in the quality of higher education out kids are getting. Just remember folks, Thomas Edison was an eighth grade drop out.

        Comment


        • #5
          When they finish college, many are well over 100K in college debt with little in the way to pay it off.
          This is a feature of our new system. It's how they introduce students to a lifetime of debt slavery. College tuition increases at well over the inflation rate because colleges know, anybody can get a school loan because the federal government will protect the loan. You can't even bankrupt out even if you really are bankrupt.

          If easy college loans went away, you'd see tuition shrink back to something sane. Otherwise there'd be no students. Look at the money, rich rentiers benefit from keeping the middle class in perpetual debt. They can afford to send their kids to school with no loans too.

          Just remember folks, Thomas Edison was an eighth grade drop out.
          I'm a mostly self taught successful programmer with no degree. These days they won't even look at your resume without a degree. It's become the new high school diploma and is seen as the minimum requirement for many jobs. I agree with you that the diploma doesn't mean all that much but in reality it's become a barrier to entry. Without it, you'll have a hard time getting hired no matter how good you are.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm not particularly concerned about the new generations. If we take off our rose colored glasses for a moment we should be able to recall that when we were younger there was a portion of us who were "dumb as a stump" just like there is today. We didn't have a platform like social media to display our stupidity to the world like they do today but those people were always there. Those with ambition and intelligence aren't acting out on social media they are too **** busy studying, working and moving forward. As in the past there were some very sharp people and there are many out there today.
            Technology is moving forward and it is driven people younger than us. Only one of 14 children in the next generation of my family is currently welding and he does it as a hobby. Only one of my own children ever showed an interest in what I did and to be honest I wouldn't recommend what I did to anyone partly because the playing field has changed and partly because, from where I sit, all of my children have been more successful than I ever was.
            As for your equipment, hope you are around for another 30+ years and I wonder where the cutting edge will be. I have a welding robot that I ended up with because it lagged behind the forefront of technology and was obsolete even as it was being displayed at a welding show in the 90's. I like to see the changes, it is interesting to see what bright young minds discover.

            ---Meltedmetal

            Comment


            • #7
              Not much incentive to learn or work anymore , people are lazy of all ages................

              My dad was a Millright in a Steel Mill and mostly welded Gas or Arc on the job but we had no welding equipment at home short of Oxy acetylene bottles. Although he showed me many things like brazing and using the cutting torch.....but not much more.......... I grew up around automotive things as a neighbor had the corner garage......and another neighbor had a welder so me and his son every chance we had would be welding junk or mini bikes in his garage.....In Metal or Auto shop in High school I could weld better than the instructor's......by 17 I was Tig welding at a fabrication shop building race chassis out of 4130 tube and mild steel...using the old huge transformer machines also doing AC / alum welding.........

              Jobs? well let's say I was never looking , but I remember my first jobs were just basic tryouts .....come to work , with no guarantee of pay for a week & if you lasted and had some smarts the owner may hire you and pay you for the first couple of days.

              Life moves on .........I have never welded full time for a living , although I feel I'm well qualified to handle just about any task and if not I know people that do and I pick there brain for pointers........I am still self-employed in a non related business. I have kept my love of cars alive and have enjoyed racing & building Drag Cars most of my life..........I have a full service race shop at home and still use it for various projects........the grandkids are now hanging around and love to mess with the mill , lathe and other machines , building little things....they also want to try welding and that will happen soon. My goal is not to turn them into welders but just to show them how so that they can enjoy the process and knowledge through their adult lives.

              I guess the moral of the story is you just have to want to work & learn , for me it was all about the learning & knowledge......at this point in life I can hold my own on the lathe , Mill , bending & rolling sheet metal , fabrication or welding on my Miller 280 DX ......although my bread & butter daily business has little or no relationship.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Meltedmetal View Post
                I'm not particularly concerned about the new generations. If we take off our rose colored glasses for a moment we should be able to recall that when we were younger there was a portion of us who were "dumb as a stump" just like there is today. We didn't have a platform like social media to display our stupidity to the world like they do today but those people were always there. Those with ambition and intelligence aren't acting out on social media they are too **** busy studying, working and moving forward. As in the past there were some very sharp people and there are many out there today.

                ---Meltedmetal
                Well said!

                Richard

                Comment


                • #9
                  In 1983, I bought some junk bonds for $250. Their value went to $1,500 in a year. Part of that $$ went for a $640 Commodore 64. On that C-64, I learned programming in Basic. In 1986, I was selected, as a result of filling out a form to apply for a Pentagon job, for a job in Full Time National Guard at the Federal level. My job was to manage an iNTEL 310-311 box, running Xenix and Informix, to obtain military database information, and create applications to help Majors and Lieutenants Colonel plan what the Army National Guard was to look like 7 years down the road. I had to scramble to get smart in a hurry. Apparently, I did OK, and they kept me around for 20 years.

                  There has always been a vast spread of self-motivation. Part of the population are eager go-getters, the majority are go along to get along, and, at the bottom, are the slackers. It has always been thus, except my Dad, who was a foreign language teacher for 50 years, told me the quality of student he was seeing in the classroom had deteriorated over the decades. I looked at some of his high school class material he had kept. I could not have scored well at it. The average student, today could not have handled it. We're talking 1920's, here. This was college level stuff.

                  To confirm the deterioration, look at how returnees from WWII and Korea behaved and were mentally with how returnees are, today. In WWII, there was no body armor, and few armored vehicles for the infantryman. He was exposed all the time.

                  Something is happening to us as a species. It is not good. Our intelligence is decreasing. Schools are dumbing down the curriculae. They have to. Students are less and less able to handle the tough stuff. Our health is getting worse. We are becoming more and more dependent on medical technology for survival. If our medical system were to collapse, 1/3 of the population would die off in a year.

                  The welder of the future is going to be a suite of robots. Some will be no bigger than a vitamin capsule. Some will be the size of shipping container cranes. There will be all sizes in between. Most will be capable of generating or storing their own power for their welds, or, as Tesla predicted, pulling the power out of the air. There will be a suite of robots to repair/adjust/calibrate/supply. Who predicted this? Adam Smith in 1765, in Wealth of Nations.

                  There is a robotic intelligence effort going on, to create a computer system that duplicates or exceeds the human mind. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...=1&oi=scholart

                  It is the nature of management to deliver "more". The manager that can't, stops being a manager. At a certain point, humans stop being able to deliver more, so managers resort to machines. Managers that don't become unemployed.

                  The future is a slacker's dream, >>maybe<<. No work is done by living hands or minds. All is recreation. >>BUT<< all recreation must be politically correct, environmentally safe, and conform to strict safety standards. Enforcement will not be done by humans, as they are prone to be inappropriately violent, or act on their prejudices (According to certain activists), it will be done robotically. "Correction" will be strictly managed robotically. All will be known, from imaging systems everywhere, in everything. No escape, no hiding.

                  The greatest human/machine struggle will be to determine the standards under which humans are monitored and allowed to behave. Increasingly, human input will be less and less relevant.

                  Progression of the technology will be done by machine intelligence. Robotic machining centers and welders will build from the new designs.

                  Humans will become a drain on resources that make less and less sense to keep around.

                  I'm soooo glad that, in 10-15 years, I won't be here. I'm sorry for my daughter and granddaughter.
                  ____________________________________________

                  I don't need to find myself. I'm always at my lathe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Doom and gloom man...but I don't think I disagree with any of it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Meltedmetal View Post
                      I'm not particularly concerned about the new generations. If we take off our rose colored glasses for a moment we should be able to recall that when we were younger there was a portion of us who were "dumb as a stump" just like there is today. We didn't have a platform like social media to display our stupidity to the world like they do today but those people were always there. Those with ambition and intelligence aren't acting out on social media they are too **** busy studying, working and moving forward. As in the past there were some very sharp people and there are many out there today.
                      Technology is moving forward and it is driven people younger than us. Only one of 14 children in the next generation of my family is currently welding and he does it as a hobby. Only one of my own children ever showed an interest in what I did and to be honest I wouldn't recommend what I did to anyone partly because the playing field has changed and partly because, from where I sit, all of my children have been more successful than I ever was.
                      As for your equipment, hope you are around for another 30+ years and I wonder where the cutting edge will be. I have a welding robot that I ended up with because it lagged behind the forefront of technology and was obsolete even as it was being displayed at a welding show in the 90's. I like to see the changes, it is interesting to see what bright young minds discover.

                      ---Meltedmetal
                      I'll quote it again.

                      Agreed.

                      Ed Conley
                      http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
                      MM252
                      MM211
                      Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
                      TA185
                      Miller 125c Plasma 120v
                      O/A set
                      SO 2020 Bender
                      You can call me Bacchus

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't understand the comments about the schools dumbing down the curriculum as schools are a grade ahead in teaching from when I was in High School- yeah quite a few years ago

                        (College is different because it isn't a set regiment- up to the students to choose which courses they want to take. Same for when I went to college.)

                        I had friends in High School that couldn't pass an open book test and I had friends that skipped a grade. Nothing has really changed.


                        My personal experience was with a local kid from the skatepark that my son knew and he was struggling in High School because he wasnt doing the work, No one will advance if you dont do the work. he pulled his head out of his arse and turned things around and now has a job at Space X as a welder.

                        He went through the welding program at Los Angeles Trade Tech.





                        Ed Conley
                        http://www.screamingbroccoli.net/
                        MM252
                        MM211
                        Passport Plus w/Spool Gun
                        TA185
                        Miller 125c Plasma 120v
                        O/A set
                        SO 2020 Bender
                        You can call me Bacchus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Burnt hands,

                          The Miller Forum started in 2005. In regards to your comment on the future of welding students, at Miller we not only manufacture welding products but also provide educational resources to welding instructors through online training tools to support and teach the next generation of welders. You can find information on that here: https://openbook.millerwelds.com/.

                          Along with that, we are also running a promotion called Build Welding's Future where we are helping to encourage the next generation of welders with the opportunity to share their stories and hopefully motivate future welders. If you know a talented new welder, please recognize them by nominating them here: https://bit.ly/2Bt9boF.

                          Thank you,
                          Miller Forums
                          Miller Electric Mfg. LLC
                          Last edited by Miller Welders; 08-29-2018, 08:41 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've been working as a welding instructor at the local college for a year now. The course content hasn't changed much since I went to welding school. What has changed is the tools we use to teach now. Tech is a great thing. We can even have students log on online and watch/listen to a class room class from their home pc in the event that they can't make it that day. It keeps them in the loop. This was unheard of back in the day. Smart boards in the classroom, you name it. All cool tools.
                            The shop is the shop. Everyone still learns how to braze, heat, cut with acetelyne. Mig, flux cor, stick, tig and arc air. Build, fabricate and layout, read drawings/prints and weld detail information. Metallurgy and weld deficiencies, you name it, It's still taught.
                            Next week, I'm starting with a new group.
                            Lincoln Idealarc 250
                            Miller Bobcat 250
                            Thermal Arc Hefty 2 feeder
                            Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52
                            Torchmate CNC table

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Thank you for the comments and insights.

                              I am happy to hear there is a silver lining to this.

                              I am just a hobby welder and took the Introduction to Welding classes not the certification prep course.
                              This was over 40 years ago so I didn't know enough at the time to even ask dumb questions.
                              This was so I wouldn't set myself or my garage on fire while learning.
                              The instructor (now retired) worked as a certified welder at the old Philadelphia Naval
                              Shipyard. (That's about all I know about his qualifications.)
                              He was skilled and tough on the class which helped me learn.
                              When one of my many welds gave me trouble, he showed me his technique to do it and
                              made it look so easy. Proved to me it could be done so I stuck with it.

                              In my second class which I took 30 years after the first, I had practiced a
                              bit more and concentrated on TIG.

                              I'm still learning.................

                              The Intro course did not have a written outline but I believe the certification prep class does have one.

                              Eastern also has an apprenticeship program with several local schools.

                              And Eastern uses Miller equipment !

                              ************************************************** *
                              New feature at Eastern is this:

                              $25/hour for use of welding equipment - priceless.

                              Booth Rental is Now Available
                              Pre-registration is required. Call 215-784-4802 between 10am-4pm Monday thru Thursday to register.
                              Fee: $75.00 per evening.

                              Practice for an upcoming weld test, brush up on yours skills or continue practicing on new skills at your own pace. For nightly flat fee EASTERN offers you 3 hours of uninterrupted booth time.

                              Welding booths are available Tuesday Evenings 1/9/2018 thru 3/27/2018 from 6:00pm-9:00pm. Our recently renovated facility includes a new state of the art ventilation system, individual welding booths, Miller welding machines for MIG, TIG and SMAW, grinding stations and oxy fuel/plasma stations.

                              Welders are required to provide their own personal welding gear including gloves and a jacket.

                              No personal instruction time is included with this rental.
                              Miller Dynasty 350, Dynasty 210 DX, Hypertherm 1000, Thermal Arc GTSW400, Airco Heliwelder II, oxy-fuel setup, metal cutting bandsaw, air compressor, drill press, etc.

                              Call me the "Clouseau" of welding !

                              Comment

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