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MM211 (inverter) - Spray transfer

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  • MM211 (inverter) - Spray transfer

    As per the title, has anyone done spray transfer with the newer inverter version of the MM211? Only info I can find in manual or brochure talks about Maximum OPEN CIRCUIT voltage of 54, NOTHING about SUSTAINED voltage being high enough to support spray. Looking for ACTUAL experience here, because it'll cost me around $300 to find out the HARD way - thanks... Steve

  • #2
    Kevin at Miller said the machine doesn't have enough voltage to go into a reliable and proper spray. He said you could try .030 wire and 95/5 gas and see how it does.... but the definitive Miller technician's answer is no it shouldn't be asked to spray. Phone: 920-734-9821 ask for Kevin. I know now for sure my MM180 will not spray, so thanks for asking.

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    • #3
      Steve, tackit. Let's talk, There's three basic types of metal transfer, short circuit (14-18 Volts) Globular (18-26) and spray (26- up) Those machines will do a spray transfer depending on the Input power, shielding gas used, wire size, wire extension/stick out, and the settings you choose Volts and WFS as well material thickness.
      The duration you will achieve an axial spray transfer will be dependent on the duty cycle and input power with the other variables in mind.

      A reliable and proper spray...Hmm? Not to get all scientific, but understanding how these modes of transfer are achieved goes a long way in saying what's reliable and spraying properly. The volt/amp curve and slope settings will help in understanding the how long part of achieving spray transfer for a given wire size, but off the cuff...I'm guessing that even with a 75/25 mix both of your power sources will achieve a "marginal " spray (improved with more argon in the mix) and have enough voltage to be in range to see it occur using .030 and probably .035.Just not continuously with out breaks in between. I should also mention, the gun cable assemble probably isn't up to the heat either?

      I would however agree with Kevin from Miller in that if you were looking for high production weld metal deposition rates achieved through spray transfer both of your machine are under powered to sustain continuous spray transfer. But they will do short bursts if you get your ducks in order.

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      • #4
        Thanks guys, kinda what I expected - if I decide to try spray (I do quite a bit of "flatlander" stuff, some fairly heavy) I'll just break out the (new but discontinued) Roughneck 300 amp torch and put it on the MM252. I KNOW THAT one will do spray, when I bought it used it came with 2 tanks - a full argon and a nearly empty 90/10 - definitely a different sound AND look...

        Won't happen til I finish emptying one of the two 330 CF tanks (one's full, other one's at about 80% so it'll be awhile) - doubt it's worth it to me to pay $280 for another big tank just for a trial, and 90/10 can still be used for short arc. Now that I have the MM211 (with my "go anywhere" super-cart :=) I can always use that for small stuff while the 252's set up for heavy...

        Duty cycles - the 211 is 20% at 200 amps, the 252 is 60%, and it's still 40% at 250. Startin' to think I shoulda just answered my OWN question :=))

        Noel, yeah the M25 gun gets a bit warm running over 200 amps, which is why I bought the heavier gun - of course, Miller discontinued the roughnecks in April of 2015, about 3 months after I bought one (same consumables as my 30A spool gun) - fortunately they still stock replacement parts, guess I better see about getting a couple things I didn't buy at the time -

        Anyway, thanks again guys... Steve
        Last edited by BukitCase; 08-01-2018, 04:59 PM.

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        • #5
          Thanks for the information Noel, information tends to shorten the learning curve. I do understand in an unscientific way whats going on, slope I can read but seldom find a need to. I just read the door chart and the wire manufactures wire setting and experiment until I find what I'm looking for.

          The reason I was interested is I read somewhere you could spry transfer with.026 and.030 wire on smaller machines.


          I once used short circuit to weld four 1/8 X 5 X 3' long plates horizontally to a 1/8 X 1" X 2 rectangular frame which was laid on the welding table. The welds looked perfect and sounded perfect, beautiful looking welds, yet when I stood the frame up on the floor all four of the plates fell off the frame, the only penetration that took place was on the plates, the tubing looked like it never was welded on.

          I gave some thought to what might have caused it to happen and believed it was my cleaning the rec tubbing with a 3" maroon Roloc pad until the steel looked like chrome. after thinking about what happened, I summarized the cause was the steel became hardened from my polishing it. which I never do anymore.

          I bet if I would have used spray transfer with .026 wire it would have penetrated the polished steel. I believe I have a roll of .026, when I get some time I'll give it a try with my bottle of 98/2.
          Last edited by tackit; 08-01-2018, 05:48 PM.

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          • #6
            It WILL do spray transfer. Use the power of the Google.

            I'd highly recommend an M25, 250A mig gun in place of the stock wimpy M100 mig gun.

            I compiled some data from various reliable sources and extrapolated minimum amperage values from said data for various wire diameters and gas mixtures. I'm on my phone right now, so I'll send it to you sometime later.
            Last edited by OscarJr; 08-01-2018, 06:44 PM.
            HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
            Eastwood MIG175 w/spoolgun
            Eastwood Versacut40 Plasma cutter

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            • #7
              Sometimes that mill scale can be really hard and thick, and you can just burnish it nice and shiny instead of grinding it down to bright shiny metal. When I'm cleaning off the mill scale, if the Roloc or flap disc isn't throwing sparks, it's not down to clean metal. And the smaller mig machines certainly need all the help they can get.

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              • #8
                Oscar, good to know; looking forward to your info. When I bought the mm211 I ordered an M150 gun, can NOT tolerate 10' guns. The M100 that came with the 211 is still in its box, probably still WILL be when they "pat me in the face with a shovel". If/when I try spray again it'll most likely be with the 252; about 3 TIMES the duty cycle at higher amperages, and I have that 300 amp Roughneck gun.

                Tackit, I'm with Ryan on the "shiny" problem - if your assessment were correct, I would probably be DEAD by now. Besides, it's kinda hard to harden mild steel, not enough carbon content - I built a steel-framed 24'x24' roof over a 20' container - frame is modular, 1 12'x24' over container and 3 8'x12' bolt-together modules beside the container (lot of winter work to do on case backhoe, 2 tractors, etc) - we get winds in the 80-100 mph range in winter, roof (and me) have survived 1 winter so far :=)

                If "shine like chrome" were bad, pretty much ALL my welds would fail (the roof frame is .120" wall 2x2 tube, about 30% done OOP with the 30A) - I would look more at running a bit hot, short stickout and staying at the FRONT of the puddle (push only, no drag on hard wire)... Steve
                Last edited by BukitCase; 08-02-2018, 11:16 AM.

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                • #9
                  A neighbor brought me a sprocket off his combine which the sprocket's boss with a set screw came off the sprocket, It was the exact same thing I had experienced, the weld went to the boss side and looked perfect, but the sprocket side didn't look like it had been touched. I used 7018 to weld it back on and he never had a problem again with it. I never used short circuit for any structural work, and never would. JMO.

                  This might not be the same situation, but I remember when I was a young lad my dad wanted to hot water blue a gun barrel, one of the things he had to do was polish the barrel.. well being it was his first barrel he over polished it and the bluing wouldn't take. The people at Herters told him he polished the barrel too much and he would have to etch the barrel in nitric acid to remove the polished surface. Also, I'm quite sure I read someplace that polishing steel does harden the surface, that's where the idea came that polishing the steel could have been my penetration problem came from. I do know how to set a machine and what to look for, and how to push a gun, it was a one-time thing for me, it's never happened to me again.
                  Last edited by tackit; 08-02-2018, 01:16 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Love 7018. It doesn't bother me keeping the little rod over plugged in either. Probably why I like dual shield. Seems to me to be as close to a low hydrogen weld using a wire. It's just expensive wire.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      "I never used short circuit for any structural work, and never would. JMO."

                      I was that way when I first got the transformer version of the mm211 - but between this guy

                      https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...t=blows+hammer
                      https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...t=blows+hammer

                      And Jody @ weldingtipsandtricks.com, I got braver - moving/leveling 40' containers alone, 2 20 ton air/hydraulic jacks and a pair of toe jack attachments made from 3/4x3 FB - each end of those containers weighs just under 5000 lbs, picked up an end with ONE of the toe jacks several times. One of the toe jacks slightly bent, but welds did NOT break. All done with the mm252, C25, .035 hard wire.

                      In all fairness, I was NEVER tempted to put any body parts in jeopardy, but I've been welding everything I do (from 100 mile-an-hour roofs to modifiying the hitch on a 1200 lb Gannon box blade, etc) using the same Lincoln L56 wire for the last 8 years, and have never broke a weld (not for lack of trying :=)

                      OTOH, you'll never find me under ANYTHING that isn't well supported by something that's stronger than the object; in 35 years working heavy industrial maintenance I watched well over 800 safety vids (also produced several, wearing ALL the hats :=) - so if anything I weld ever DOES break, I (hopefully) will still be able to say, "Dang, I wonder why THAT happened??!?"

                      JMO, we all have 'em... Steve

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tackit View Post
                        Thanks for the information Noel, information tends to shorten the learning curve. I do understand in an unscientific way whats going on, slope I can read but seldom find a need to. I just read the door chart and the wire manufactures wire setting and experiment until I find what I'm looking for.

                        > Your welcome for the information. If you've found it of value even more so as it does take some time for me to type it. It's disappointing to me that I don't keep a record of what I've typed, I could cut and paste saving some time?
                        A lot of my resources are lost in translation with a move to Windows 10? Now they want me to buy another version of Microsoft office??? Or an app? I don't think so?
                        That panel cover chart, works just fine in most instances. Reason they put it there. But close to a home run isn't a home run? The problem arises when the variables of material thickness and stick out factor into play.



                        The reason I was interested is I read somewhere you could spry transfer with.026 and.030 wire on smaller machines.

                        > Oh boy...an opening I can spout some interesting stuff maybe? Axial spray with small diameter wires. Hmm? I've talked a lot of talk since signing up. Most of it on the GMAW process. But I read once you couldn't and asked why? At one time, it was said you couldn't achieve axial spray with small diameter wires and the reason was the wire got to hot? Hmm? So I asked why again. While I could explain this in greater detail, in simple terms, the wire lost it's ability to be magnetized in a small enough constriction to squeeze droplets.
                        So what a person sees is really a stream of surface diameter droplets not a necking down of the wire into a spray of micro droplets. That however was the result of a number of factors that technology, process advancement have changed or addressed in new and costly welding technologies.


                        I once used short circuit to weld four 1/8 X 5 X 3' long plates horizontally to a 1/8 X 1" X 2 rectangular frame which was laid on the welding table. The welds looked perfect and sounded perfect, beautiful looking welds, yet when I stood the frame up on the floor all four of the plates fell off the frame, the only penetration that took place was on the plates, the tubing looked like it never was welded on.

                        >I actually wrote a reply to this earlier and lost it when things timed out. I then replied to another post. Here we are again?
                        To put things in perspective. I beat to death current flow, electron travel. Painfully.
                        If this was SMAW and we were talking stick electrodes, we would probably all agree that somewhere in that formula of thousands of an inch per amp, that by that rule, a 1/8" E6010 would require 125 amps. Yet, a E7018 actually takes a bit more amperage. Welding down the seam of two plated butted tight together, both rods would show different penetration profiles. The E6010 with a cellulose coating that burns up, melts/breaks down more easily then a Basic low hydrogen coating, will require less energy to do so and those electrons traveling back and forth create this occurrence so the rod melts faster and penetration is deeper. The arc voltage strips smaller droplets more forcefully account for deeper penetration, magnified if the effects of voltage are introduce through a gouge and fill or whipping action? This of course is done with electrode positive, work negative.
                        When your welding with a solid wire in the GMAW process, that small conductor is going to melt and the force behind the drop is really the flash of the arcs heat as electrons travel melting the wires surface and the time it takes to do so. If that wire doesn't feed fast enough the droplet burns above the surface and the heat energy is lost doing so as a result fusion/penetration and dilution suffers.
                        Now while I could suggest to you a few scenarios, I'm going to say in the bigger picture, if you butted two plates together with GMAW, you'd be disappointed to see just how little penetration you actually get. IF you use the thickness of a stick electrodes diameter (E6010) as a reference, how deep do you think an .035 wire penetrates?
                        If the parameters are out, even less. And if you think basket ball, think low fast dribbles, because big tall bounces don't penetrate.


                        I gave some thought to what might have caused it to happen and believed it was my cleaning the rec tubbing with a 3" maroon Roloc pad until the steel looked like chrome. after thinking about what happened, I summarized the cause was the steel became hardened from my polishing it. which I never do anymore.

                        > Well...if you have a weld that's high in voltage and low wire speed, possibly too short of stick out, riding the puddle or favoring one pieces edge over another, not seeing close enough the crater and effects of dilution, not having lower melts oxides and a bit of rust to bit into, I could see where all that smoothness and cleaning didn't help. But it's a learning experience.

                        I bet if I would have used spray transfer with .026 wire it would have penetrated the polished steel. I believe I have a roll of .026, when I get some time I'll give it a try with my bottle of 98/2.
                        > I'm thinking your going to one day have this figured out. But to summarize, if a straight line is drawn, and a circle is drawn, the line is the top of the plate and the circle is the wires end forming a droplet during a short, is the WFS high enough to push the droplet in or is it to slow forming a pinch and dropping off and falling?
                        One thing for sure, if the end of the wire has a large ball when your done welding, chances are you could increase WFS. While I would encourage you to play, you could play a bit more with what you got by adding more voltage and more WFS. Bigger the fire the more things are going to burn?

                        I mentioned in a previous post robotics. Well, it knows A to B. While they can make the latest one weave and whip, it's simply stated A to B. So, with that in mind, we can talk what volts do, WFS speed does, stick out and such, but we can't forget the fundamentals of inclination and angle with travel speed effecting weld penetration profiles and deposition as well heat input and cooling rates as this effect mechanical properties.
                        I know...bllah,blah,blah. That's why turn the heat up and burn it in works so well. Spray transfer.

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                        • #13
                          If I thought the welds were cold I would have noticed and ran the heat up, but the welds looked perfect and were perfect, .also both pieces of metal that made up the weld joints were of the same gauge, so all things considered, if the heat was adjusted properly for one side, the heat should have been OK for the other side too. how could anyone know by looking the other side of the joint was refusing to weld and was holding together for a few seconds by the slightest of penetration?



                          OK what causes my 251 in spray mode to sound like a noisy transformer hum instead of making the fried bacon sound?.

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                          • #14
                            https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/562...bbd138d956.pdf

                            If you have pictures of those welds please post them. But as I mentioned and others attest, lack of fusion can be a problem with short circuit metal transfer especially welding with low voltage on thicker materials which provide greater quenching of the droplets heat. As for the spray transfer, a few pictures there as well the settings would be most helpful to understanding and offering solutions. It should sounds like a hiss?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What I got out of the reading the article so far after reading it one time.:

                              The temperature of the droplet doesn't change much with higher current, where the droplets do pick up the heat, is during their flite towards the base metal due to the influences of electromagnetic and gravitational forces.

                              Gas should be increased at higher amperages. but it's possible to come up with a common gas setting? (which sounds more like CYA speak to me)

                              The size of the ball in globular transfer mode is larger than the diameter of the electrode, and its frequency of separation from the electrode is slower than in spray mode.

                              In spray mode, voltage is higher, but the size of the ball is smaller than the electrode's diameter, and the balls seperation frequency from the electrode is faster than when in globular mode.

                              Noel, after reading the article, I understand better the globular and spray processes, but it's going to take me a few more readings to pull all the information together and put it to good use. Interesting stuff, thanks for the link.

                              Here's a picture of my tilting flagpole base, the welds were spray welded.

                              I still think knowing what makes a welding machine sound different in spay mode than when welding in short circuit mode would be cool to know.

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