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  • Explaining electron travel...?

    I've been thinking of an experiment...in the name of science and U tube.

    My buddy posted a video of a black bird that flew down his chimney and got 15k views? Once or twice a week he still gets a few hits.

    I'm just wondering what you think of the possibilities I might have for success? Call this market research? Maybe a channel directed towards the instruction of welding and the science behind it?

    I'll gather 100 mice. 70 white and 30 black.

    In a two room stacked box, with a hole in the middle of the separating floor, a cord hanging through from the ceiling in the roof of the top box, through the hole in the floor to the bottom level, I'd train them to seek a food source.

    The group of mice on the lower level would be trained to discover food at the upper level, climbing the cord. The upper level
    group of mice
    finding food at the lower level having to fall down the cord.

    The idea is that if both groups of mice were released in their level of the box at the same time and went looking to go up/down the cord, with a trained response in expectation of a food reward, the results would be an interesting sight to see would it not?

    Now before you go and say why not just use 10 mice, or maybe 20 and train them accordingly, I say go hard or go home. The difference between 10 bottle rockets and 100 going off is more is better.

    I was just thinking however, that if a person was going to do such an experiment, it might explain things on the GTAW side but for SMAW it would require the cord to be hung inside a glass tube elevated off the lower surface, arc length.
    My second video, same mice...Life gets easier the more you think.

    100 mice...I think it'd be epic, a real sight to see. I could become internet rich and famous. Welding really does take you places?
    So what do you think? Would you click on it once?




  • #2
    If you want to learn electron travel, these would get you off to a start:





    Once you read books similar to those and work out most of the problems, you will know enough about electron travel, that wanting to post a video on the internet about explaining electron travel will be the least of your desires. That way people who actually do know a little about these things won't laugh in ridicule at such videos. I know I have a chuckle at some youtube videos.
    Last edited by OscarJr; 07-23-2018, 01:24 PM.
    HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
    Eastwood MIG175 w/spoolgun
    Eastwood Versacut40 Plasma cutter

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    • #3
      Oscar Jr, I didn't see book titles mentioned, but I'd be interested in the list?
      I do have a solid understanding of electron travel. Problem is most don't.
      Like why does one polarity welding with SMAW give less penetration when welding with GTAW. Why the shape of the tungsten electrode leads to greater or less penetration? Why some rods are AC or DC and why the polarity? Arc rectification, Inductance dials, effects of conductor size in GMAW or FCAW wires? Most don't get it?

      And let's not forget easy money by the click, likes and shares. 100 mice, that's a winner.

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      • #4
        I see. Well let me put it this way. If it were easy, we'd all do it and be rich.
        HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
        Eastwood MIG175 w/spoolgun
        Eastwood Versacut40 Plasma cutter

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        • #5
          If I raise the voltage by one volt what am I changing and doing to a weld's bead? Then let me throw if the differences between three phase and single phase power, and if three phase power greatly improves the way electrons create a weld bead.
          Last edited by tackit; 07-24-2018, 04:19 AM.

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          • #6
            "
            If I raise the voltage by one volt what am I changing and doing to a weld's bead?"

            One volt eh?

            I asked google what's a volt?

            -"
            the SI unit of electromotive force, the difference of potential that would drive one ampere of current against one ohm resistance."

            Try this...take a straw and a glass of water. Blow threw the straw directing at the waters surface. Lowering the straw represents less resistance more force, raising the straw equates to less force greater resistance. Any changes?

            An Olympic running wins the race by one second, maybe because he choose to shave all that hair from his body who knows? But that's the power of one.

            When welding with a CV power source, you won't raise or lower voltage. Because the voltage setting remains constant. Increasing/decreasing wire stick out lengths when welding, or in conjunction with increases/ decreases of WFS, alter the effects/relationship of resistance to voltage will have an effect on weld metal deposition and mechanical properties. The effect of those changes however slight may or may not be of concern depending on the application?

            When using a CC welding power source, Amperage is constant and WFS increases or decreases by changes to arc voltage when the previously mentioned effects on stick out length changes.

            I used a previous example in another post of GMAW on 1/16" material. The appearance of an increase in voltage occurs or typically appears as a wetter more fluid droplet. Simple terms, your getting a larger droplet when you decrease WFS, small firmer droplets that are hotter when you increase WFS due to lowering resistance, as this effects the appearance of voltage and the force required to bridge the gap of the arcs length.


            Over cooked pasta. Runny mash potatoes, a soft ice cream cone melting in your hands, a weld that doesn't fuse, but penetrates and runs into a joint.

            If I have a 5gal pail and a 45gal drum, the volume is potential. If I drilled 4 holes at equal divisions from the bottom to top of each container, the volume of water released from the hole, equates to pressure.

            I posted picture of some broken weld test coupons...It's a much bigger picture for those whos need for the knowledge is of greater importance.


            "
            Then let me throw if the differences between three phase and single phase power, and if three phase power greatly improves the way electrons create a weld bead.
            "

            Yes and no.
            In the bigger picture...no. In a smaller picture, yes.
            In the context of this discussion. No... or it holds limited value unless your willing to discuss how tapping your power source from 120V to 240V effect out put characteristic of the power source.

            Now...anyone who's tried to weld a regular E7018 electrode on single phase current will have experienced grief in there attempts to do so.
            The reason why, is due with description of the singular sine wave shape. The arc has difficulties during reignition of the half cycle, which is actually not as apparent with three phase having a phase lighting up while one diminishes, the original industry standard from the beginning when bare electrodes were used. As one phase drops another picks up so the light stay on more continuously, the slag doesn't start too freeze over the conductor increasing resistance. The 1/3 factor, the rising /falling of current and it's greater peaks from three phase, limits cooling and maintains heat towards the greater arc stability.

            Getting back to the E7018 on single phase. All those books and the charts say it's an AC/DCRP electrode. Well the phase they were referring to was three.
            Those AC rods, E7018 AC,...that's an example of the dog catching it's tail. Add magic pixies to the coating mix and like a sparkler the light doesn't go out.
            Including a #9 in the equation... E7019...lets say, same thing in the dog catching it's tail. With the added bonus of mixing a rutile and lime basic coating together.

            I hope I answered that and a few other questions? Maybe not? But I tried.
            One thing for sure however, there's always another hill to climb and another small picture to show for it's view.

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            • #7
              Seriously, what's all this discussion for? Honestly, the average person doesn't care or want to know about the specifics of electron travel.
              HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
              Eastwood MIG175 w/spoolgun
              Eastwood Versacut40 Plasma cutter

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              • #8
                Thank you, Oscar.

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                • #9
                  With all due respect gentleman...the narrow mindedness of some comments leads it's self to the notion of thought which suggests to me stupid breeding more stupid. Seriously???

                  If you can't understand what "value" the understanding of electrical current flow serves in understanding welding, how and why, then you have paid too much for your education and failed in getting the value it should have provided.

                  I cast a shame to you both. Those comments and the support of them are what keeps a poor man struggling to get ahead, a student looking to learn, left with out an answer, and quite frankly, on a forum of learning and discussion in the age of smart phones what I'd expect.

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                  • #10
                    A weldor may WANT to know the intricacies of electron flow and what have you, but they don't NEED to know those nuts and bolts details to be able to make beautiful and sound joints. I've worked with many a weldor who wouldn't know the difference between a volt and an amp and they enjoyed long and successful careers. And yes, you may add me to the list of "narrow minded" members on this forum.

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                    • #11
                      A monkey can be taught to run a bead, the phrase another dumb welder come to mind? Heck, they shot one of those into space? Did he build the space ship? Do the math? No. But he ran a bead for bananas.
                      And that welder working in the sweat shop because he lacked education for advancement, I'm sure he's happy as ****. 20 year and the same job he's locked into due to limits of education most likely.
                      The biggest complaint from manufactures in America is the likes of your way of thinking. Keep it simple and them stupid. You want to join the list so be it.

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                      • #12
                        Yup, you’re right again, we want to join the ranks of the dumb monkeys running beads in a sweat shop due to our lack of education holding us back. Let the record show shame has been cast.

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                        • #13
                          Noel,
                          Took a class or two where electron travel was discussed at length.
                          I can see the need for certain people to understand it completely.
                          There would be very few jobs where that particular knowledge would be helpful to "advance" in a welders world.
                          If working in the shop is a sentence, then one should pick another career. Increasing your knowledge is a great thing. That doesn't mean you need to sit behind a desk as a reward. That would be a sentence IMO.
                          This thread could be useful and when it's purpose is questioned, insulting the very root of the reason why we are all here is not good.
                          Sorry you can't teach a monkey how to weld. If you could I would be raising them.
                          The problem with America isn't not wanting to learn basic science and principles, it's making America believe if you do a job that requires physical work you should be a lower paid person without hope and stuck in a dead end job.
                          More than once you have made condescending references to the trade. If you wanted to leave the shop because of whatever reason you had at the time, great. I hope it was a wonderful prosperous decision.
                          This forum is to share WELDING related topics. You cannot share what you assume is relevant and demean us at the same time and be taken well. Let's see your welding work or discuss your welding knowledge. Not hypothetical welding theory of operation and then talk in circles of meaningless jargon, only to compare us with primates because we don't make the connection of welding and electrical values.
                          I am quite certain you could now pick at all my bad grammar and find fault with my perspective. I don't care.
                          I have known many guys who had great careers and came to my area and tried to do what I do as a retirement sort of business. The skill level simply wasn't there. You have to put your time in. Advancing in the welding field doesn't necessarily mean advancing within a company. It can mean changing jobs.
                          Being a CWI doesn't mean you can put on a hood and pass x-ray. The longer you go without practice the worse you get. The longer you practice the better you get.
                          Electron travel consideration is more relevant to designing and repairing electronic machines rather than welding.
                          If you notice.....there is a great deal of folks who begin their membership only to discuss how to get their welding machine to work. We NEED a category for that subject for sure.
                          Let's not forget the very reason we are here.
                          I could have been anything I chose to be. I do what I enjoy.

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                          • #14
                            FusionKing -
                            Noel,
                            Took a class or two where electron travel was discussed at length.
                            I can see the need for certain people to understand it completely.
                            There would be very few jobs where that particular knowledge would be helpful to "advance" in a welders world.

                            ***I respectively disagree. A welder who can only weld in the flat position has limited advancement opportunities. Out of position welding requires an understanding of electron travel, amperage and voltage, power source volt amp curve relationships as well arc characteristics not because it makes the weld better, although it usually does, but because it makes placing the weld to size and shape easier to accomplish with less risk of defect.


                            FusionKing -
                            If working in the shop is a sentence, then one should pick another career. Increasing your knowledge is a great thing. That doesn't mean you need to sit behind a desk as a reward. That would be a sentence IMO.

                            ***Working in the shop can be a sentence. It doesn't have to be, but it usually is for those who choose not to learn more. I will agree sitting behind a desk isn't all it's cracked up to be, but neither is wearing a mask to avoid sucking up flux core fumes for 20 years?

                            FusionKing -
                            This thread could be useful and when it's purpose is questioned, insulting the very root of the reason why we are all here is not good.
                            Sorry you can't teach a monkey how to weld. If you could I would be raising them.

                            *** It should be noted that while tone is lost in the conversation that is internet based, my response was a "stand your ground response". And that monkey comment...Welding simulators. I can take a 5th grader and teach him to run a bead, but we outlawed using those little monkeys didn't we?

                            FusionKing -
                            The problem with America isn't not wanting to learn basic science and principles, it's making America believe if you do a job that requires physical work you should be a lower paid person without hope and stuck in a dead end job.

                            ***Ask the question...who benefited most from the invention of the wheel? The mule pulling the cart? Farm labour filling the cart? Or the guy who owned the field?


                            FusionKing -
                            More than once you have made condescending references to the trade. If you wanted to leave the shop because of whatever reason you had at the time, great. I hope it was a wonderful prosperous decision.

                            ***Could you offer specific's? I've done a lot of typing? Honestly, I'm pretty sure my comments were directed to those in the trade who's insight to these matters I've questioned and who's comments I've replied to. And while the tone is at times perceived to be condescending, I'm not going to be intimidated and stand behind my responses which have been at great length and expense to my time.
                            And yes, my education has served me well.

                            FusionKing -
                            This forum is to share WELDING related topics. You cannot share what you assume is relevant and demean us at the same time and be taken well. Let's see your welding work or discuss your welding knowledge. Not hypothetical welding theory of operation and then talk in circles of meaningless jargon, only to compare us with primates because we don't make the connection of welding and electrical values.


                            *** I may cherry pick my responses to topics I'm more aquatinted with and I assumed I was discussing welding related topics? While I admit that the appearance of questioning someone authority doesn't always bode well, Blind obedience to a cause is what leads to men dying for a hill that holds no value but to stroke an ego. The monkey thing again was not the connection to electrical values but to education and a lack of requirements for such.


                            FusionKing -
                            I am quite certain you could now pick at all my bad grammar and find fault with my perspective. I don't care.

                            ***I assure you, I don't worry about grammar, spelling or punctuation. I worry about pipe line leaks, bridge collapses, building falling down.

                            FusionKing -
                            I have known many guys who had great careers and came to my area and tried to do what I do as a retirement sort of business. The skill level simply wasn't there. You have to put your time in. Advancing in the welding field doesn't necessarily mean advancing within a company. It can mean changing jobs.

                            *** Just think, if someone actually understood what was happening, wouldn't that shorten the learning curve? Why wasn't the skill there as you mentioned? My forwardness suggests a lack of knowledge? Moving from one job to the next I agree offers greater learning opportunities and usually is done for financial rewards. And extra $.25 an hour adds up? But if you go from one trailer manufacturing job to another, you won't be learning as much as you will be transferring skill from one to another job for 2 bits more.

                            FusionKing -
                            Being a CWI doesn't mean you can put on a hood and pass x-ray. The longer you go without practice the worse you get. The longer you practice the better you get.

                            *** I disagree. Muscle memory. Repetitive behavior. Practice doesn't make perfect without advancing knowledge. Other wise you repeat bad habits and accept it for what it is. At 63, My eye sight is failing, my hands not as steady and my body not as lean and flexible as it once was, Ill give you that. But I can still weld and if that's what it takes to have a voice, what's the test I'm prepared to take it.

                            FusionKing -
                            Electron travel consideration is more relevant to designing and repairing electronic machines rather than welding.

                            *** I again respectively disagree. As I previously mentioned, E7018 as one example, welding out of position another, dilution and fusion, as well as how it affects those mechanical properties. That's welding.


                            FusionKing -
                            If you notice.....there is a great deal of folks who begin their membership only to discuss how to get their welding machine to work. We NEED a category for that subject for sure.

                            *** I agree whole heartedly. And if all this forum is about is how to fix Miller equipment then I'm in the wrong place. But I think we can both agree, that if welding was that easy to understand, there would be no need for me to discuss the subject of it's science any further.


                            FusionKing -
                            Let's not forget the very reason we are here.

                            ***I haven't. I actually thought the mice thing world be a quite brilliant display. If nothing else, all that typing will have I'm sure, someone talking? I won't however stand on idle as someone ridicules what they don't see as a value for the sake of ridiculing what they don't understand or fail to.
                            Like a teacher saying it's not on the test so you don't need to know that?

                            FusionKing -
                            I could have been anything I chose to be. I do what I enjoy.

                            *** Me to. Retired 5 years now. Ever wonder how I have so much time to give to my rebuttals and reply to these post to such length? Quite frankly though, I've given up a considerable amount of my time and energy to this cause and with little to show for it.
                            Things were seemingly fine before I showed up and will remain so.

                            But for the record, I was doing this before GMAW and GTAW were news toys. I worked my small shops, big shops, and been in the field. My life has been welding starting from a small job shop ending with a career in Welding instruction and training. I bought the Miller books of learning before they were given for free and I'm a grad of the Miller Power Course 20 years ago.
                            My level of knowledge while deemed by some as excessive, pales in comparison to some I've been lucky to meet along the way, and is backed by hand skills that I'm willing to prove still exist, and were advanced through knowledge of the process.

                            Thank you for your reply.


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                            • #15
                              He

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