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  • tig welding muntz metal

    Does anyone have tips on tig welding muntz metal (60% copper 40%zinc)? Im getting mixed results in both AC and DC neg, though i have seen both recommended on other threads.

  • #2
    I try to stay away from the zinc bearing alloys

    HATE that white zinc oxide smoke

    you might be better off with oxy-acet................
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
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    • #3
      Yes. Me too, but its just a small thing and i thought i could do it quickly. Wow was i wrong.
      I finally found my notes on this subject, copied from welding tips a tricks. What i really didn't know (or remember) was what to do on AC balance, and found that Jody recommends max penetration/zero cleaning. This and keeping the temp as low as possible. I'm getting fair results now, but it ain't easy. I'm using silicon bronze filler, though maybe there is a better option..?

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      • #4
        A big heat sink if you can find something that will work.

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        • #5
          How do you mean Ryan? To heat up and place under the work? Or to draw heat away from the work. Im finding if anything i need to pre-heat the work with a torch then make my welds.
          Right now the problem is color match of filler to muntz. Pictured is a small test. The base metal is the 1/4" muntz and the dark areas are where the silicon bronze filler is. Its been ground, sanded, and patinated. The match isn't too bad til the patina goes on, then not so good as you can see. Im thinking about trying aluminum bronze filler. Any ideas?

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          • #6
            are you trying to weld it or braze it? As far as the color match, I have no idea...whats it for anyway? The only fancy stuff like that I've worked on was copper and I was brazing it with silicon bronze. Seemed like you couldn't get it hot enough at first then it would get too dadgum hot and make you stop, that's why I said use a heat sink. I ended up using a chunk of aluminum I had in the shop and it seemed to work ok once I got going.

            With aluminum bronze you'll find that you'll like to use AC to tig it. I just brazed with some the other day and had my balance set up to 70 I think...freq at 80 or 90...but it was cast iron and pretty old at that. If you have a large gas lense, use that.

            Depending on how big of a piece you're working on, you could attempt a solder with some bronze solder. I have done that and the color match is pretty good.

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            • #7
              Thanks ryanjones2150. Im welding the parts, though the weld puddle is shallow, there is definitely mixing of the base metal with the filler. I find that as soon as you try to get more than a small/shallow puddle the base (muntz metal) sort of boils and pops. So the penetration tends to be minimal, but good.

              As i said earlier i was having decent results with AC after getting the balance corrected, but this does take a lot of amperage to do the 1/4", and everything gets really hot. Not long after i wrote last, i found a website (weldwire.net) that recommended DCEN, which i had tried but without any luck). What they also recommend, that i had not seen anywhere else, is an increased shielding gas flow. 30-40 cfh. This works pretty well actually. Its a very different process.. sharp tungsten instead of balled, and the puddle looks a bit dirty and leaves soot around and over the weld, but its all clean underneath. And no pitting inside the weld after dressing. I didn't do any strength tests on the DCEN welds as i had on the AC though, so one might be stronger. Not sure.

              In the string of images I've attached (as one photo) starting from the left is a piece of the 1/4" muntz base metal that i have gouged with a grinder. Moving right, you can see what the weld looked like (piss poor, i know), and how it cleaned up. The last frame you can see shows the patina over the area. For some reason, and i have no idea why, it seems the weld doesn't show darker than the base, as it did before using AC.

              But ryan, to your last suggestion yes, the original idea was actually to silver solder (or silver braze as some say) these parts. Unfortunately i sold my oxy/acetalene torch set-up about a year ago, which with a rose bud tip would have made short work of this. Now all i have are two mapp gas torches, which even used together don't even get close to hot enough.

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              • #8
                I have had similar "color match" issues in repairing investment cast bronze statuary sculpture.....

                some "FM" involved in getting it to match..... if you could get some 80/20 Cu-Zn rod (matching the parent metal)

                and avoid boiling the puddle..... boiling will deplete the Zinc changing the color.... not to mention gagging you out....

                you might prewarm it with a torch before trying to TIG it

                BTW...what TIG machine are you using..???

                may sound counterintuitive..... but you might try blunting your tungsten and widening your standoff...

                might diffuse and gentle your arc heat a bit................
                Last edited by H80N; 12-30-2016, 04:53 PM.
                .

                *******************************************
                The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                My Blue Stuff:
                Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                Dynasty 200DX
                Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                Millermatic 200

                TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

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                • #9
                  This is Alloy #280... NOT alloy #365....???? I hope....................( #365 is lead bearing )

                  Here is probably more than you want to know............ but a good reference.. worth downloading

                  "WELDING COPPER & COPPER ALLOYS HANDBOOK"

                  https://www.copper.org/publications/.../pdf/a1050.pdf

                  Last edited by H80N; 12-30-2016, 06:23 PM.
                  .

                  *******************************************
                  The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                  “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                  Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                  My Blue Stuff:
                  Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                  Dynasty 200DX
                  Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                  Millermatic 200

                  TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Looks like you found a solution with the color match. That's good. Interesting that the grain structure was so different from AC to DC. At least that would appear to be the case. <br />
                    <br />
                    Are you using a gas lense? That will help a lot with the shielding gas and maybe lessen the sooty appearance.

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