MM252 running Dualshield?

[WillieB]

Has anybody here used Dualshield in a Miller Matic 252? I believe .045 is the appropriate size. I presume I need the correct liner, feed rollers, (Knurled), and tips. Is there anything else I need to know. I've had the welder 5 years, and love it for MIG, but I get lots of criticism for using MIG repairing a trailer. Those criticizing say 6010 is the only answer for good penetration when after grinding, rust pits are still present. A few people feel Dualshield will give equivalent penetration. I've been struggling with 6010 out of position, the worst being horizontal where the bottom flange of I beam 1/4" thick meets a 1/4" bent spring mount. This is effortless with MIG, but a difficult weld with 6010. Vertical weave filets go very well for the first couple inches, but I feel I need a foot pedal to back off the heat as everything gets hot. With MIG it goes in well, and looks good. Will I have a similar experience with Dualshield, and will it provide the penetration everyone says I need.

7018, and MIG are low hydrogen processes. Is Dualshield?

I've never fully understood the need for deep penetration. In rust pits we want to wet them, and float them to the surface with the slag. In clean steel does penetration depth matter?

Willie

[aametalmaster]

I did for 5 years. Some days were worse than others but i was using a 15' gun and working in a small area where a 10' would have worked better...Bob

[lars66]

If you still have rust pits after grinding be aware that dual shield is porosity sensitive. I have welded many a trailer with .030 solid wire without criticism or come back. I probably have a different approach to using .030 wire because I run it hot on 300-450 amp machines and can adjust down to do lighter work without wire change.

[aametalmaster]

I agree with Lars and solid .030 wire. I like using it the best for the reasons he gave...Bob

[Oldgrandad]

We use Ultracore 71A85 .045 for new builds of our trailers and truck beds where penetration is a concern, such as adding a forklift carrier on the tail of a 45' trailer or a lift gate on the back of a truck bed. Most work is done with .035 ER70S6 solid wire including repairs and we haven't had issues with repeat failure of any cracks or damage.

[Boomer63]

I have seen companies in my area using hard wire (.045) rather than dual shield. 95% gas mix, spray transfer.

[gnforge]

Dual shield all the way for me. Run tons of it through a 252 now using 350-p. Almost all my on road work is dual shield through wire feeder. <br />
Still working will add later if time. Look at specs compared to 6010 & 7018. Super up hill

[Can You Weld This For Me?]

Is this a one time repair or are you going in business to fix rusty trailers? If it's a once in a blue moon deal, grind it out best you can, turn that 252 up, lay it in there and move on with life.

[WillieB]

Is this a one time repair or are you going in business to fix rusty trailers? If it's a once in a blue moon deal, grind it out best you can, turn that 252 up, lay it in there and move on with life.

The generic term "welding" involves many disciplines. Those I have applications for I usually want a good process to accomplish. In my life I have many times wanted to fabricate something from old rusty steel. Immediate applications are the replacement of undercarriage mounting on the trailer, conversion of an old oil tank to a little garage for a bulldozer I'll hide from my wife's view, and conversion of a big grizzly to a finer gravel screen. All projects involve old steel. New steel is nicer to work, old steel is cheap, sometimes free. New steel becomes old all too soon. Everything I've ever built in big weldments has involved salvaged steel in some way. It's a long list.

Buying my first MIG, I was thrilled at the speed, and beauty of the welds on anything thicker than 22 gauge. I was crushed when people started claiming my welds wouldn't hold. Although none of my MIG welds have failed, I'm concerned by some of the criticism from knowledgeable people.

Also, I'm an electrician. One of my biggest industrial customers has an endless series of steel fabrications. Outdoor work is windy, indoor work too tends to be very drafty. While heavy fabrication is left to contractors, motor mounts, conduit supports, electrical equipment mounts are left to me, and my son. Gas shielded flux core sounds like a good alternative to 6010 and 7018. I want to know more. Is it worth the investment, or a dead end?

Willie

[lars66]

What investment? I have run dual shield up to .052 in 40 year old AP 250 wire feeders with single V grove rollers since they were new. Proper liner, tip and gas is all you need. For some reason I think you are set on trying dual shield for the wrong reason, I will repeat again that is porosity sensitive with dirty metal and wind, to burn .045 might put you in a high enough heat range that it will not work for what you describe your doing.

[WillieB]

What investment? I have run dual shield up to .052 in 40 year old AP 250 wire feeders with single V grove rollers since they were new. Proper liner, tip and gas is all you need. For some reason I think you are set on trying dual shield for the wrong reason, I will repeat again that is porosity sensitive with dirty metal and wind, to burn .045 might put you in a high enough heat range that it will not work for what you describe your doing.

Maybe I am confused! I was of the belief this was a wirefeed equivalent to 6010, in that it could burn through some crap, and be tolerant to some wind. It leaves slag protecting the weld, and uses shielding gas for extra protection. I'm using .035 solid wire, I guessed I'd need at least .045 to be equivalent.

Whether it includes low hydrogen, I don't yet know.

Willie

[Can You Weld This For Me?]

Ok gotcha. I'd just whip out the 5p and 7018 again and practice until you get where you want to be. Dual shield isn't going to be the savior you're thinking it will be.

[lars66]

I would like to hear the points of the criticism you are getting. Why not try a small spool of .030 for the arc intensity? Myself Spool Arc 86 with C-25 works the best in my machines but different brands of wire work a little different in various machines. By the way I have been around very knowledgeable people in the repair welding for a long, long time and also have been in the repair welding business for a long, long time.

[gnforge]

Not sure why anyone thinks dual shield is porosity sensitive?????<br />
Solid wire only has gas coverage. Dual shield has both!! It's flux is made to help pull up impurities. It runs fine with light wind even when wind picks up most time I cup hand in front and no problem. Very easy to even put welding coat in front runs great. But no biggie to put up wind block if need. <br />
I run metal core wire, .045 spray transfer in shop all day but very very difficult to run spray transfer up hill. But doable. <br />
Now Dual Shield has slag and is fast freeze in spray transfer. So you get great penetration with fast freeze. Doesn't get much better than that. You can run that stuff overhead the same as flat. No difference. And up hill unbelievable!!! Once you get settings fine tuned you can make vert up look as good as 7018 flat. I love vert up with dual shield. Also if know what your doing can weld vert down and get pretty strong weld. Not happening with solid wire and takes a very good welder with 7018 and then questionable. <br />
Last but not least it's fast. All things considered I can almost double my work with dual shield compared to stick. Unless it's small, welding in rain or water my return customers won't pay me for stick. They expect the speed of wire feeder in field work. <br />
As for porosity I spent 6-hrs to day repairing a bat wing brush hog at a big local farm. Had stick 6010-7018 and full roll of inter shield but welded all with dual shield Hobart Excell Arc 71. It was all rusty and all had been repaired sometime earlier with stick by someone that couldn't weld with stick, bunch of broken welds filled with slag <br />
Could not get all slag out of broken welds but welded all day Some new plates to old rusted metal and re welded broken welds etc. all outside light wind and NO porosity!!!! <br />
It would hv been a very very long day with 6010-7018. <br />
I also do a lot of work for local saw mills. A lot of vibration and abuse. As for strength Excell Arc 71 has higher tinsel strength and higher ductile strength than 7018 let a lone 6010. Look up and compare. But my test is in the field. It is strong. Been using it well over 6 years it speaks for itself. As for wire size I use .045 for everything from 11ga. To 1" just prep the thick stuff as u should. <br />
Just my opinion. <br />
Hope it helps

[WillieB]

Not sure why anyone thinks dual shield is porosity sensitive?????<br />
Solid wire only has gas coverage. Dual shield has both!! It's flux is made to help pull up impurities. It runs fine with light wind even when wind picks up most time I cup hand in front and no problem. Very easy to even put welding coat in front runs great. But no biggie to put up wind block if need. <br />
I run metal core wire, .045 spray transfer in shop all day but very very difficult to run spray transfer up hill. But doable. <br />
Now Dual Shield has slag and is fast freeze in spray transfer. So you get great penetration with fast freeze. Doesn't get much better than that. You can run that stuff overhead the same as flat. No difference. And up hill unbelievable!!! Once you get settings fine tuned you can make vert up look as good as 7018 flat. I love vert up with dual shield. Also if know what your doing can weld vert down and get pretty strong weld. Not happening with solid wire and takes a very good welder with 7018 and then questionable. <br />
Last but not least it's fast. All things considered I can almost double my work with dual shield compared to stick. Unless it's small, welding in rain or water my return customers won't pay me for stick. They expect the speed of wire feeder in field work. <br />
As for porosity I spent 6-hrs to day repairing a bat wing brush hog at a big local farm. Had stick 6010-7018 and full roll of inter shield but welded all with dual shield Hobart Excell Arc 71. It was all rusty and all had been repaired sometime earlier with stick by someone that couldn't weld with stick, bunch of broken welds filled with slag <br />
Could not get all slag out of broken welds but welded all day Some new plates to old rusted metal and re welded broken welds etc. all outside light wind and NO porosity!!!! <br />
It would hv been a very very long day with 6010-7018. <br />
I also do a lot of work for local saw mills. A lot of vibration and abuse. As for strength Excell Arc 71 has higher tinsel strength and higher ductile strength than 7018 let a lone 6010. Look up and compare. But my test is in the field. It is strong. Been using it well over 6 years it speaks for itself. As for wire size I use .045 for everything from 11ga. To 1" just prep the thick stuff as u should. <br />
Just my opinion. <br />
Hope it helps

You talk of spray transfer. Is a MM252 capable of spray transfer? Is the machine too small for this product? Would .035 be a better size?

Willie