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Diversion 165 Problem "Poped then smoked"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Stefen7 View Post


    Is there a formula, or is that an approximation based on experience? It seems to be a common question for people who are, temporarily or permanently, running their welder on a smaller service than required by the manual.

    Some people have a limited input, and just increase welding amps until the breaker trips. But that assumes the breaker is the weakest link, and is functioning properly.


    But what about those who want a specific output, lower than maximum, and need to determine the proper input wire and breaker?
    There was a question asked recently about a Dialarc H-F on an under-sized breaker, that was never answered. (The poster decided to not buy the welder).

    For that case, information from O-M 315H, SN: JB 510828
    There are 5 rated outputs listed for stick and AC/DC TIG, (pg 12), 3 amp ranges, with 6 volt-amp curve lines on two charts (pg 17), and one fuse recommendation (pg 15). Evidently it is confusing to many people.

    It is not as simple as looking at the volt-amp curve and determining output watts, because that does not include the loss due to machine efficiency. (For example, at rated load, my 61F has a 4500 watt output and 10,350 watt input, for efficiency of about 43%. And requires a breaker with 13,800 watt capacity, which is 300% of output).


    The poster wanted about 250 amps output. So assuming 250 amps for AC / DC and TIG / stick, what breaker would he need? The required fuse is 150 amps, but that is for 310 amp output, not 250 amp.

    The rated input is 90 amps @ 250 output, but that does not give any ‘cushion,’ and presumably a 90 amp breaker would trip. Would a 100 amp breaker be enough?


    A solution that has been suggested, is to size the wire for continuous load at 250 amps, (90 amp input); use a full-load (150 amp) breaker to handle peak load at 250 amps; and skip doing the complicated math of sizing the breaker properly. But that violates code and requires the operator to be very aware of the amp setting and duty cycle. It also assumes there is enough 230v available to supply peak demand.

    This topic comes up frequently, and could make a good ‘sticky,’ except getting into a risky grey area of breakers and wiring deviating from the O-M and possibly violating code.

    Th owner/operator MUST pay attention to parameters..... sometimes you need to TEMPORARILY get by

    a careful operator will navigate the situation.... a mindless drone will continue to pop that undersized breaker & maybe start a fire

    That derated output guess was based on previous experience

    but....

    IdeallyYou really want to conform to the manufacturers guidelines

    See Table 3-3 in the manual

    https://www.millerwelds.com/files/ow.../O353J_MIL.pdf

    Last edited by H80N; 10-14-2016, 11:34 AM.
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200DX
    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
    Millermatic 200

    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by ggodwin View Post
      I'm getting too much information. My uncle who is an electrician recommends a 50 amp breaker and 00 gauge wire. This seems like a ginormous size wire. Common sense tells me that I need to match the power cord that is coming into the machine.

      would a 50amp circuit and #4 wire be enough?
      Agree-00 wire is way over what you need. And very expensive. #4 copper is fully code compliant assuming 60% duty cycle. Not sure why you would put a 50a brkr on #00 wire? The manual ref H80N provided calls for 110 amp breaker but unless you plan to run this thing flat out all day, 100 a should be fine. And you could get away with #6 wire both legally and performance wise per the manual so long as you stay with a 100a brkr to comply with Art 630. However, I would use #4 if it were mine -- always better to be a little oversize than under. And the longer the distance, the more you benefit from the larger wire.
      Last edited by Aeronca41; 10-14-2016, 01:59 PM. Reason: Spelling correction

      Comment


      • #33
        When I build my garage next year, I will wire it for full output, following the O-M.

        But the other poster with the Dialarc H-F, wanted to wire it properly, for less than full output (250 amps on 310 amp welder). Ryan and I could only quote the breaker and wire info in the O-M, but that was larger than he needed for only 250 amps output.

        The welder is drawing 90 amps continuous at 250 amps output, and a bit more at peak as the arc fluctuates, but a properly sized wire can handle that brief increase.

        But a 90 amp breaker will not allow the increase over 90 amps, and would trip.

        In your experience, what size breaker would be needed for them to properly run a welder at 250 amps, drawing about 90 amps / 230 volts continuous, with momentary increases?

        Comment


        • #34
          Personal opinion only-others may have different ideas. If I was planning on 90 amps in a welding application I might go with a breaker the next standard size over 100 A, or just go with 100. Check the link below for typical breaker trip curves-they are only instantaneous devices under some conditions.

          http://static.schneider-electric.us/...0600DB0105.pdf

          You can see from the graph on page 2 that depending on severity, overloads may be tolerated for considerable periods of time (unless you happen to have old FPE breakers; they will tolerate huge overloads almost indefinitely including after the house fire has already started).

          If this was a general household circuit, code only allows for design load of 80% of the circuit ampacity. Art 630 for welders makes the special case.
          Last edited by Aeronca41; 10-14-2016, 07:37 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            FPE breakers are bad bad. Had another house fire last shift caused from the failure of an FPE product. Got me and my FF burned in that fire too. If you have an FPE panel, do yourself a favor and change that mammerjammer out.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
              FPE breakers are bad bad. Had another house fire last shift caused from the failure of an FPE product. Got me and my FF burned in that fire too. If you have an FPE panel, do yourself a favor and change that mammerjammer out.
              Scary! I try to take.every opportunity to warn people about those things, so they don't need guys like you and your team showing up at their house. Your last your last shift is proof that there is still a need for warnings.

              Comment


              • #37
                It is far more common than a lot of people think for a federal pacific breaker panel to burn someone's house down. I even have a class I teach here about these miniature weapons of mass destruction. And can you believe the ace hardware here sells replacement breakers for those panels? What a shame.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Thank you Aeronca41 and H80N for the information.

                  The fact that electrical fires happen was the reason to ask for the correct size breaker to supply a welder at less than max amps, so we can give good advice in the future. When the O-P asked if he could run a Dialarc H-F off a dryer outlet, Ryan’s answer was “NO”, and all I could say was the O-M requires a 150 amp breaker (for 310 amp output). Neither of us could recommend a breaker size for 250 amp output.

                  With information like this, us junior members can help others with the basic questions, leaving you more experienced senior members to tackle the really difficult questions.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Stefen7 View Post
                    Thank you Aeronca41 and H80N for the information.

                    The fact that electrical fires happen was the reason to ask for the correct size breaker to supply a welder at less than max amps, so we can give good advice in the future. When the O-P asked if he could run a Dialarc H-F off a dryer outlet, Ryan’s answer was “NO”, and all I could say was the O-M requires a 150 amp breaker (for 310 amp output). Neither of us could recommend a breaker size for 250 amp output.

                    With information like this, us junior members can help others with the basic questions, leaving you more experienced senior members to tackle the really difficult questions.
                    They should call a local licensed electrician....for their particular situation...

                    otherwise the danger and liability are too great..... it will be money well spent

                    We have gotten petty far off topic....(AND Best Practices.....)

                    I would like to hear how GGODWIN is doing with his new SYNC 250
                    Last edited by H80N; 10-15-2016, 12:02 PM.
                    .

                    *******************************************
                    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                    My Blue Stuff:
                    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                    Dynasty 200DX
                    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                    Millermatic 200

                    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by H80N View Post

                      They should call a local licensed electrician....for their particular situation...

                      otherwise the danger and liability are too great..... it will be money well spent

                      We have gotten petty far off topic....(AND Best Practices.....)

                      I would like to hear how GGODWIN is doing with his new SYNC 250
                      +1. Thanks for steering us back. :-)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Aeronca41 View Post

                        +1. Thanks for steering us back. :-)
                        I worry about people getting hurt by some inadvertant act causing mayhem on their person or property....

                        a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing........misunderstood or misapplied
                        Last edited by H80N; 10-15-2016, 09:23 PM.
                        .

                        *******************************************
                        The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                        “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                        Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                        My Blue Stuff:
                        Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                        Dynasty 200DX
                        Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                        Millermatic 200

                        TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I got the 250 going. I don't have it moved to my shop yet but I basically have it moved so I can finish a project that is two weeks a delayed.

                          my welds are similar to what they were before. But, I think I'm not operating the welder correctly. My tungsten is splitting down the tip. Other times is just flat out cooks away really quick.

                          any suggestions?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ggodwin View Post
                            I got the 250 going. I don't have it moved to my shop yet but I basically have it moved so I can finish a project that is two weeks a delayed.

                            my welds are similar to what they were before. But, I think I'm not operating the welder correctly. My tungsten is splitting down the tip. Other times is just flat out cooks away really quick.

                            any suggestions?
                            What Tungsten...??

                            You want..2% Lanthanated (Blue) Tungsten... Taper ground...

                            ??? what size..??? Amperage...??......

                            Sounds like you are running 2% Thoriated (RED).... that does NOT like AC
                            Last edited by H80N; 10-20-2016, 11:02 AM.
                            .

                            *******************************************
                            The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                            “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                            Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                            My Blue Stuff:
                            Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                            Dynasty 200DX
                            Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                            Millermatic 200

                            TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              1.5% Gold Lanthanated 3/32" tapered Dow
                              125 Amps

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ggodwin View Post
                                1.5% Gold Lanthanated 3/32" tapered Dow
                                125 Amps
                                2% Lanth is better...................

                                Here are a couple of Tungsten comparisons

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpanERwagaU

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzEuV83UGMY



                                .

                                *******************************************
                                The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                                “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                                Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                                My Blue Stuff:
                                Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                                Dynasty 200DX
                                Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                                Millermatic 200

                                TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                                Comment

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