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  • Millermatic 200 vs 211 ?

    Hello all,

    I have not done any welding myself since High School and early College. I have spent a lot of time preparing items and assisting for an Journeyman welder to weld on my classic cars, hot rods, and other items. All my own stuff.

    We am building a new garage next spring in a house out of town. The garage-shop will have good space and a lot of 220v plugs. I will be floating between my place in San Francisco and the one in the small town with the shop for 5 more years until I can (I hope) retire.

    We have a couple of classic cars. We have a classic 1949 Aluminum trailer I need to restore, and I want to start on an experimental aircraft. I will move my 1943 Logan Lathe and my 1937 Drill Press from SF to the shop once I get it done next year this time.

    I need a welder. I need to practice with for the next 5 months, with the Journeyman looking over my shoulder from time to time. That way I can do some item myself for the new garage shop.

    I need 110V for here in SF. That is all I have in my garage here and that is not going to change.

    So, A Multi Voltage machine is a must. I also don't want to deal with two machines. I don't need a machine to be "portable", but I do need to be able to move it occasionally back and forth.

    I have zeroed in on the Millermatic 200 or the new 211.

    I looked over the specifications. It is hard to compare the duty cycle as they don't show the specifications at the same output AMP's. Nice obfuscation Miller. As far as I can tell they are close.

    What I do not understand is why the price spread between the two. They look close on specifications, just the weight between them.

    Can anyone shed any light on this?

    I doubt I will every need to weld anything thicker that 3/8 inch in my hobby work, and even if I did I could make multiple passes. A hobby is rarely done in a hurry. If I get to building or restoring and antique airplane, I would be working with chrome molly tubing. The skin of the trailer and possible some parts of an airplane would be very thin aluminum.

    Help guide a newbie here.

    Thanks, James

  • #2
    Originally posted by SFjames View Post
    Hello all,

    I have not done any welding myself since High School and early College. I have spent a lot of time preparing items and assisting for an Journeyman welder to weld on my classic cars, hot rods, and other items. All my own stuff.

    We am building a new garage next spring in a house out of town. The garage-shop will have good space and a lot of 220v plugs. I will be floating between my place in San Francisco and the one in the small town with the shop for 5 more years until I can (I hope) retire.

    We have a couple of classic cars. We have a classic 1949 Aluminum trailer I need to restore, and I want to start on an experimental aircraft. I will move my 1943 Logan Lathe and my 1937 Drill Press from SF to the shop once I get it done next year this time.

    I need a welder. I need to practice with for the next 5 months, with the Journeyman looking over my shoulder from time to time. That way I can do some item myself for the new garage shop.

    I need 110V for here in SF. That is all I have in my garage here and that is not going to change.

    So, A Multi Voltage machine is a must. I also don't want to deal with two machines. I don't need a machine to be "portable", but I do need to be able to move it occasionally back and forth.

    I have zeroed in on the Millermatic 200 or the new 211.

    I looked over the specifications. It is hard to compare the duty cycle as they don't show the specifications at the same output AMP's. Nice obfuscation Miller. As far as I can tell they are close.

    What I do not understand is why the price spread between the two. They look close on specifications, just the weight between them.

    Can anyone shed any light on this?

    I doubt I will every need to weld anything thicker that 3/8 inch in my hobby work, and even if I did I could make multiple passes. A hobby is rarely done in a hurry. If I get to building or restoring and antique airplane, I would be working with chrome molly tubing. The skin of the trailer and possible some parts of an airplane would be very thin aluminum.

    Help guide a newbie here.

    Thanks, James
    The MM200 is an industrial duty welder rated for 270amps @ 30% duty cycle...... but it is heavy and was discontinued 20+ years ago

    While the new MM211 is a small....modern... portable... lightweight inverter.....

    Both are excellent machines but are very different
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200DX
    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
    Millermatic 200

    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

    Comment


    • #3
      James, were you perhaps referring to the Multimatic 200, not a Millermatic 200? Both the Millermatic 200 (old, big, heavy, and I won't part with mine) and the 211 are mig-only. As H80N said, you haven't been able to buy a new Millermatic 200 for many years. If you are referring to the currently available Multimatic 200, the $800-$900 difference is the fact that the 211 is mig only, while the 200 is MIG, tig, stick (with some optional eqpt). There is also a new Multimatic 215 ( apparently the next evolutionary step from the Multimatic 200) out within the last month or so that is cheaper than the 200. While many people do it, I am personally (and I have a lot of company) not sold on the mig process for amateur-built aircraft using 4130 tubing, and I doubt you will be very happy with a spool gun on the 211 for very thin aluminum-that is classic tig territory. Sounds to me like you want at least tig and mig capability with what you have in mind. Check out the Multimatic 215.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Aeronca41 View Post
        James, were you perhaps referring to the Multimatic 200, not a Millermatic 200? Both the Millermatic 200 (old, big, heavy, and I won't part with mine) and the 211 are mig-only. As H80N said, you haven't been able to buy a new Millermatic 200 for many years. If you are referring to the currently available Multimatic 200, the $800-$900 difference is the fact that the 211 is mig only, while the 200 is MIG, tig, stick (with some optional eqpt). There is also a new Multimatic 215 ( apparently the next evolutionary step from the Multimatic 200) out within the last month or so that is cheaper than the 200. While many people do it, I am personally (and I have a lot of company) not sold on the mig process for amateur-built aircraft using 4130 tubing, and I doubt you will be very happy with a spool gun on the 211 for very thin aluminum-that is classic tig territory. Sounds to me like you want at least tig and mig capability with what you have in mind. Check out the Multimatic 215.
        Addl Info: ....The Multimatic 215 & 200.... Do have TIG... BUT it is DC only... So No AC TIG for aluminum... if that is important to you
        .

        *******************************************
        The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

        “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

        Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

        My Blue Stuff:
        Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
        Dynasty 200DX
        Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
        Millermatic 200

        TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by H80N View Post

          Addl Info: ....The Multimatic 215 & 200.... Do have TIG... BUT it is DC only... So No AC TIG for aluminum... if that is important to you
          ...which is a very key point I neglected! Thanks, H80N.

          Comment


          • #6
            Forget thin aluminum welding with either of those machines, IMO. Thin aluminum = necessary AC tig welder.
            HTP Invertig221 D.V. Water-cooled
            HTP Pro Pulse 300 MIG
            HTP Pro Pulse 200 MIG x2
            HTP Pro Pulse 220 MTS
            HTP Inverarc 200 TLP water cooled
            HTP Microcut 875SC

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Guys, I missed typed. I have so much stuff on my desk I printed out I just put in the wrong names/number in my original post.

              I was referring to the multi-process machines. The 200 and the 215. https://www.millerwelds.com/equipmen...s/multiprocess

              Since the only Aluminum I would likely ever be doing is thin, then the Multi-Process machines would be ok for MIG, Stick, and some TIG, but I would need something else for thin aluminum. Would you recommend something other than a multi-process machine? If multiple machines, which ones?

              Would Aeronca41 please elaborate on "While many people do it, I am personally (and I have a lot of company) not sold on the mig process for amateur-built aircraft using 4130 tubing" ?

              I am looking, starting in about a year or so, into building or restoring an c.1928 to 1932 large biplane. What process do you use on airplane 4130?

              Thank you all for the help and information.

              James.

              Comment


              • #8
                If you are going to "Restore" a rag & tube bipe from that era....

                you might consider an Oxy/Acet torch.... that is how they did it then.........

                and is still a very valuable skillset

                there was no such thing as MIG or TIG

                Here is a thread on it.....

                http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...light-aircraft



                FWIW.... my own personal choice for 4130 is TIG..&.. ER-70-S2..
                Last edited by H80N; 09-03-2016, 02:46 PM.
                .

                *******************************************
                The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                My Blue Stuff:
                Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                Dynasty 200DX
                Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                Millermatic 200

                TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SFjames View Post
                  Hi Guys, I missed typed. I have so much stuff on my desk I printed out I just put in the wrong names/number in my original post.

                  I was referring to the multi-process machines. The 200 and the 215. https://www.millerwelds.com/equipmen...s/multiprocess

                  Since the only Aluminum I would likely ever be doing is thin, then the Multi-Process machines would be ok for MIG, Stick, and some TIG, but I would need something else for thin aluminum. Would you recommend something other than a multi-process machine? If multiple machines, which ones?

                  Would Aeronca41 please elaborate on "While many people do it, I am personally (and I have a lot of company) not sold on the mig process for amateur-built aircraft using 4130 tubing" ?

                  I am looking, starting in about a year or so, into building or restoring an c.1928 to 1932 large biplane. What process do you use on airplane 4130?

                  Thank you all for the help and information.

                  James.
                  Mig by nature requires a good degree of practiced skill to ensure adequate and consistent penetration. Not saying it isn't possible, and I know there are several factory airplanes that are mig welded, but not by amateurs. Also, there are some who say the heat from mig doesn't warm the tubing around the weld enough; I am not qualified to comment on that. Maybe we have a welding engineer who can comment. If you look at EAA publications, you will find lots of OA and tig welding discussion and not much mig. I don't think I have ever seen a mig welder ad in Sport Aviation, but there sure are a lot of tig ads. I learned to weld 4130 in the 1960s with OA, and even though I have a top-line tig machine, I think if I were welding anything on the old Aeronca (withA&P supervision-I am not an A&P), I would be using my trusty old aircraft torch. I haven't done any aircraft welding for years but I think it would come back if I got into it. The artistry of the factory welds on these old airplanes is magnificent.

                  BTW, H80N makes a good point on using ER70S2
                  for Tigging 4130. There is a lot of discussion on the topic but I think it safe to say the general consensus Is that a guy in a garage working on 4130 tubing should NOT use 4130 rod unless there is capability for highly controlled cooling-you can get brittle welds. Mild steel filler material is the ticket

                  have you chosen a project airplane yet?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    James, your situation has some similarities to mine, so this might be something to think about.
                    I completed my training as a welder in the early 1990’s. The economy tanked, jobs disappeared, and I have not welded since. In my new business, I will only be welding occasionally, like a hobbyist. But some of my welds, like a trailer carrying a 12,000 lb excavator on the highway, are critical. I used every penny I had to start my business, so I am currently living in a house w/o a garage, never mind 220v power. I will have a garage with 220 next year.


                    Only looking at welders that run on 110v and 220v can eliminate some very good units. I have a 50 ft extension cord from my kitchen stove to the driveway. Problem solved, and I found a good 220v welder that can do what I need.


                    I initially considered MIG, because that is what all the pros use. But the pros use it because speed is an issue in a welding shop, sometimes more than quality. The pros that are skilled at MIG do it for hours every day, for decades. Most hobbyists choose MIG simply because it is cheaper than TIG, and many produce very bad welds that look good, until it fails.

                    I chose TIG because anyone with training on TIG knows it is the best process for an occasional welder to produce high-quality welds in a critical application. You have total control over the heat, filler metal, travel speed, etc. It is much easier to look at a completed TIG weld and know it is good, vs MIG that can have lack of fusion, but still look OK.

                    The cost of a TIG weld will theoretically be higher per inch than a MIG weld. But that does not include the time and money needed to become proficient at MIG, which takes longer than TIG. For the amount of welding being done, the cost per inch is not critical compared to all the other costs.

                    I decided that for the amount of welding I will be doing, it is worthwhile to pay the extra cost of TIG vs MIG for critical welds. You may look at it the same way.


                    As for aluminum, low-temperature brazing, epoxy and rivets can be a good alternative to welding. I defer to the experts on this, but I have heard that welding on ‘old’ aluminum can be difficult because it does not ‘age’ like steel does. Also issues with fatigue, corrosion or even stripping paint from thin base metal can make repairing old aluminum difficult.

                    Good luck & have fun with your projects.
                    Stefen

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ok, So what I am hearing from the assembled comments is the following:

                      For simple around the house and old car stuff get a Multi Process 200 or 215 but without the TIG or Spool gun. Then get a good AC-DC TIG Machine (which one?), and then get a very good set of OA tools...

                      I sent and email to tinmantech.com on the OA stuff as they are a couple of hours away and have a class coming up in December that on OA that looks good. Back to High School for me!

                      What TIG machine would be a good match for me?

                      Thanks, James.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SFjames View Post
                        Ok, So what I am hearing from the assembled comments is the following:

                        For simple around the house and old car stuff get a Multi Process 200 or 215 but without the TIG or Spool gun. Then get a good AC-DC TIG Machine (which one?), and then get a very good set of OA tools...

                        I sent and email to tinmantech.com on the OA stuff as they are a couple of hours away and have a class coming up in December that on OA that looks good. Back to High School for me!

                        What TIG machine would be a good match for me?

                        Thanks, James.
                        OR....

                        Get a Syncrowave 210 with the spoolgun option

                        that gives you full featured AC/DC TIG and spoolgun MIG....

                        https://www.millerwelds.com/equipmen...welders-m00488

                        Last edited by H80N; 09-04-2016, 12:59 PM.
                        .

                        *******************************************
                        The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                        “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                        Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                        My Blue Stuff:
                        Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                        Dynasty 200DX
                        Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                        Millermatic 200

                        TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Syncrowave 210 looks very interesting in that I can use here in SF on the 110V some small items and car related stuff, but, then I start to shift fill time to the house in the country in a few years I will have the 220V set up and I can just move the machine back and forth from time to time.

                          It is getting a little pricy, but, in the end I do not want to every have to buy another welder. This plus a good OA setup should cover anything I will every need.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sync 210 Videos.................

                            https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...Syncrowave+210

                            .

                            *******************************************
                            The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                            “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                            Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                            My Blue Stuff:
                            Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                            Dynasty 200DX
                            Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                            Millermatic 200

                            TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have zero experience with welding on aircraft, but I have welded plenty of 4130 tubing for roll cages in race cars. I choose the tig process on all 4130 because I can control the heat. Just don't get in a hurry and let it heat up properly. It's done exactly like that all the time. My preference for filler metal on 4130 is er80sd2. If I don't have any, or not in the size I want, I have no problem using er70s2 or er70s6. <br />
                              <br />
                              Learning to tig on small tubing is about the worst way ever to learn to tig. About the only way to make it worse is if you did the same learning process on aluminum tubing. <br />
                              <br />
                              MIG welding on 4130 is also done all the time with great success, by both pros and garage mechanics. I choose the tig process over mig because I simply refuse to allow even one tiny chance of anything to endanger my driver. That goes for all my welds. <br />
                              <br />
                              If you do choose to MIG, use good quality wire that is made to a set standard every time. Not like horrible freight welding wire that some YouTube channels say is just fine for the hobby welder. I say bullbutter.

                              Comment

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