TIG welding rod classifications

[Olivero]

Hello fellow welders,

I have a question on TIG welding rods, specifically one I noticed on the box of my 5356 this morning.

It says it meets the requirements of "AWS/SFA A5.10 standards." I can't find what those standards mean but I am hoping it will answer the question I have had for a while regarding TIG rods and was kind of what prompted me to ask here.

The SMAW electrodes are rated by pounds and alloy, coating, etc. 7018 (70K) 6010 (60K) etc. And that's all nice and simple, but what about aluminum and stainless wire, 308L, 316L, 5356, 4043, (the classics) etc. How would I determine the tensile and shear strength of the weld like I would with SMAW sticks and is that even possible?

When I put down a bead with a 7018 rod I know what to expect in terms of strength, when I put down a bead of TIG, all I know is that it won't break unless something really weird happens but I have no numbers to think with in terms of actual proven strength like I do with stick..

Kind of a thing I have been wondering about for a while but never got around to asking, anybody know?

[OscarJr]

it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer a little bit, but for the most part, if you compile different values from different sources, you can have a very good approximation for standard formulations of that alloy.

[Olivero]

Okay so I guess there is no 1 standard for the TIG rod like there is for Stick rods?

[H80N]

AWS does sell copies of the various filler standards (not cheap though )

here is the chart with links

http://pubs.aws.org/t/FillerMetalSpecifications

[OscarJr]

Okay so I guess there is no 1 standard for the TIG rod like there is for Stick rods?

No, there usually are standards by which specific alloys adhere to, BUT, different formulations and impurity control could result in actual values far exceeding MINIMUM specifications. For example, the UTS for a rod meeting spec "XYZ" is 70ksi rod usually dictate that the weld, under specific weld procedures, will result in a minimum of 70ksi UTS. If the manufacturer of that rod has very strict quality control and mfg procedures and produces excellent products, it could very well be that the resulting weld actually results in 85ksi UTS, even if it came from a 70ksi "rated" rod. I'm not saying this is always the case, but it could very well be a possibility. On the other hand, another filler rod manufacturer can call their rod ER-whatever-whatever, just because they intend it to be classified as such, but the chemical percentages are off, and impurities are not held to strict maximums, then it may not meet the spec of an "equivalent" rod also called ER-whatever-whatever from another manufacturer. Again, not saying this is the case in any specific sense, just a mere possibility depending where you look for things.

[H80N]

For me I would put my trust in a manufacturer that strictly adheres to the AWS filler standards

[Olivero]

H80N, I was trying to avoid having to buy a book to find out lol.

Okay Oscar, That does make sense and I get what your saying, obviously quality differs but I am looking for even just a nominal like the 7018 is nominally rated for 70K, could be more but it will at least hold 70K.

Doesen't need to be 100% accurate, I am just trying to get some numbers I can say when I am asked as currently I say, "I don't know, but it's strong" you know?

Maybe I have to buy a book.....

But I guess its kind of hard to say as with a stick you know the bead diameter or at least a pretty close idea of how fat it will be where in TIG there is not really a standard bread width as it so depends on what your doing.

[H80N]

H80N, I was trying to avoid having to buy a book to find out lol.

Okay Oscar, That does make sense and I get what your saying, obviously quality differs but I am looking for even just a nominal like the 7018 is nominally rated for 70K, could be more but it will at least hold 70K.

Doesen't need to be 100% accurate, I am just trying to get some numbers I can say when I am asked as currently I say, "I don't know, but it's strong" you know?

Maybe I have to buy a book.....

But I guess its kind of hard to say as with a stick you know the bead diameter or at least a pretty close idea of how fat it will be where in TIG there is not really a standard bread width as it so depends on what your doing.

For aluminum.... a lot of what you are looking for is in the Hobart guide for aluminum welding

FREE download

http://www.hobartbrothers.com/downloads/HobartAluminumGuide.pdf

[Hobart Aluminum]

AWS A5.10 is the aluminum filler metal specification that gives the manufacturer of the wire guidelines for diameter, packaging, chemistry analysis, testing methods, winding requirements, etc. Currently there are no provisions for listing the strength of the filler metals but we are working on including this info in a future revision of the specification. One of the reasons why this is not a simple task is because aluminum alloys vary greatly by chemistry and base metal dilution can effect strength of the weld. The best method of reporting this information is through all weld metal tensile tests.

Until they're added to A5.10 you can find the UTS on the data sheets for most of the aluminum filler metals offered by Hobart at this link.

Here is some of the data that can be found on page 11 of the Hobart Guide for Aluminum Welding:

[Olivero]

Cool, well thanks a lot. Definetley helps. I am building pan racks currently with 20 pan slides on each side, 3 of these. So far I have done 80 of them and I am just trying to get an idea of how strong the weld would be for each shelf. its 3/16", 6061 T-6 aluminum, welded with 3/32" 5356 filler rod, 130 A, 1/8" E3 electrode, 40(penetration) / 60 (cleaning) balance. 100 Hz, doing a lap weld for the top part of the shelf and a fillet for the bottom.

Each pan slide has 4 welds, 2 laps and 2 fillets. Its welded to 1/8" square tubing, also 6061 T-6, brand spanking new aluminum. I am trying to upload pictures but it won't upload them.

Looks like according to the above chart, I could safely assume about 18 KSI. So 18 thousand pounds of weight on the shelf before the weld would give out, is that right to assume that?

Downloaded the guide, lots of usefull information, I downloaded the Maxal version 2 years ago when I started welding but It was too complicated, now its like reading a book. Amazing what experience will do for you.

[OscarJr]

Looks like according to the above chart, I could safely assume about 18 KSI. So 18 thousand pounds of weight on the shelf before the weld would give out, is that right to assume that?

No, sorry but you're way off on this one. KSI doesn't stand for "thousands of pounds". It stands for "thousands of pound PER SQUARE INCH. That's what the "SI" part denotes. Per square inch of what? See, that's where it gets complicated. It's a very lengthy subject to teach from the ground up, but no that shelf will not hold the weight of 4 mid-size cars on it.

Think about it----if that was the case, then I could build a super tiny eensy weensy shelf the size of my hand and all the welds would also be 18ksi, so my micro-shelf would also hold the same weight as your full size shelf. See how that doesn't make any sense in the real world?

What you are trying to understand is likely a combination of tensile and bending stresses and how they affect a structure by way of the material's Yield Strength, Ultimate tensile strength, and cantilevered bending moments, which depend on the material's Elastic Modulus and Sectional Moment. People go to college for years to just scratch the surface of this stuff---it's called majoring mechanical engineering.

At this point, the best thing you can do is look up other, proven designs and take it from there. To pre-engineer stuff like this and arrive at workable number values, you pretty much need to be an engineer and have access to Finite-Element-Analysis modeling software like Solidworks---and know how to use it. Again, an endeavor that takes years to master.

[H80N]

AWS A5.10 is the aluminum filler metal specification that gives the manufacturer of the wire guidelines for diameter, packaging, chemistry analysis, testing methods, winding requirements, etc. Currently there are no provisions for listing the strength of the filler metals but we are working on including this info in a future revision of the specification. One of the reasons why this is not a simple task is because aluminum alloys vary greatly by chemistry and base metal dilution can effect strength of the weld. The best method of reporting this information is through all weld metal tensile tests.

Until they're added to A5.10 you can find the UTS on the data sheets for most of the aluminum filler metals offered by Hobart at this link.

Here is some of the data that can be found on page 11 of the Hobart Guide for Aluminum Welding:

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Thank You Galen.....................

[Olivero]

Oscar Jr.

Thank you for clearing that up, I am fairly new to designing stuff, I am basically building copies of what has already been built. Problem is that they are not built anymore by the company that did them so I am doing them in house.

So then how is it measured? If I want to know how much weight my shelf can hold how would I get a ballpark figure of that? I am not building a bridge that needs to be exact to the last number but I want to be able to say that this shelf can hold 500, 600, 1000 pounds of whatever it is.

[OscarJr]

Measured (just as the name implies): Simply build one and load it up how it would be loaded in actual use with objects of known weights, until it gives. So by destroying one in that way, you can have a very good idea of how much weight it can hold.

[Olivero]

Okay, guess that's what's its come to lol.