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Older Miller lectro spot model 11 spot welder

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  • Aeronca41
    replied
    Yes. 90 is the relay. It is a single pole (only one set of contacts). If you look at the schematic diagram on page 4 of the manual, the contacts are shown in the lower left side, labeled CR1. The coil for it is shown near the lower left as a circle with CR1 in it.
    Last edited by Aeronca41; 08-14-2016, 05:39 AM. Reason: Added info

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  • miller_130xp
    replied
    which part is the contractor? is that the relay part number 90 in the manual?

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  • Aeronca41
    replied
    Can't tell from the pic if the contactor has a 2 or 3 contacts wired in parallel, or a single set. Can you see the contacts; are they clean, and is the contactor pulling in solidly when you start welding? Does it stay solidly in for the whole time? If there is any question, and If you're safe doing it, I would put the two voltmeter meter leads across each pair of contacts in turn (if there are multiple sets) on the contactor and look for zero volts when the contactor is closed and you are welding. Also conduct a very thorough search of the weld circuit's connections-wires, terminals, crimps, etc. this just sounds like you're not getting full power to the tongs for some reason.

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  • miller_130xp
    replied
    I have basic electrical and safety knowledge working on live circuits. For tools I have a multimeter.

    Here is a photo of the timer and the two vacuum tubes.





    Here is a photo of the 6c4 vacuum tube with the metal protective cover off.




    Here is by far the best spot weld I was able to produce. The plugs for the other welds are significantly smaller in diameter.

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  • Aeronca41
    replied
    You are completely correct, but I wonder why the manual specifies a #10, 30A circuit. My first thought is that there is a very large, but relatively short, current spike when you first make contact to weld that generates a lot of the heat. Would love to have a scope with a fast current probe on the input power line. However, thinking further, the transformer inductance would probably cause an exponential rise waveform rather that a very sharp pulse. Hard to say without some more data and calculations. Considering how simple these machines are, there really isn't much to go wrong on the weld side; any complexity is in the timer. I still suspect the contactor (relay). Do you have electrical and safety knowledge to work with live circuits?

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  • miller_130xp
    replied
    Update: The manual reads 3.1 kva for 15% duty and 1.5 kva for 50% duty. So 15% duty would be 26.9 amps. If I understand correctly the duty effects the amount of time I have to let the machine rest. If I go with a 30 amp circuit and get 3.1 kva will that improve the spot welds?

    The data plate reads 115volts, 1.5kva and open circuit volts 1.6. Using this calculator and 115 and 1,5 as inputs it works out to 13 amps. This is well within 15 amps. http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/elec...Calculator.htm

    Last edited by miller_130xp; 08-11-2016, 02:18 PM.

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  • Aeronca41
    replied
    Originally posted by miller_130xp View Post

    I'm not tripping the breaker on the 15 amp circuit. Would my poor weld quality be explained by the 15 amp circuit? Is there such a thing as a 30 amp 110V circuit? I'm just aware of 15 amp and 20 amp.
    Yes, there is such a thing as a 110v 30A circuit. You would probably begin to trip the 15 A breaker if you did a series of spot welds. I would certainly wire up a 30 A circuit with #10 and see if it helps. The owner manual link that H80N provided says your machine needs a 30A circuit. It would have a 30A single pole breaker and would be wired with #10 wire. They generally have a special outlet, NEMA 5-30. Your welder has a 5-15 series plug on it which allows you to plug it into a 5-15 or 5-20 outlet( standard home outlets). The 5-30 outlet has one prong "bent" at the top (Google nema 5-30) which I don't think will accept your 5-15 plug. But back when your welder was built they weren't so particular about such things, and may have expected the welder power circuit to just have a 5-20 receptacle. Hard to say what the thought process was behind the 5-15 plug with a 30A circuit requirement. Probably perfectly legit based on special allowances for welders due to non-continuous duty cycle in the NEC; I assume there was something like today's Article 630 in the code back then.

    Also, as H80N and aametalmaster said, be sure your tips are not too large on the end. The manual calls for 1/8" diameter. Any larger and you will be losing heat concentration resulting in poor welds.
    Last edited by Aeronca41; 08-11-2016, 03:44 AM.

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  • miller_130xp
    replied
    Originally posted by Aeronca41 View Post
    30 A sounds reasonable. You need a large surge of current for a short time. A 30A circuit would be wired with AWG 10 copper, while your 15 A circuit could be as small as AWG 14. The difference in voltage drop would certainly be noticeable and may starve the machine for power.
    I'm not tripping the breaker on the 15 amp circuit. Would my poor weld quality be explained by the 15 amp circuit? Is there such a thing as a 30 amp 110V circuit? I'm just aware of 15 amp and 20 amp.

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  • Aeronca41
    replied
    30 A sounds reasonable. You need a large surge of current for a short time. A 30A circuit would be wired with AWG 10 copper, while your 15 A circuit could be as small as AWG 14. The difference in voltage drop would certainly be noticeable and may starve the machine for power.

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  • miller_130xp
    replied
    I was reading the manual for the newer 110v spot welder and it calls for a dedicated 30 amp line. It is not clear from the old manual what the amps should be for the line. The line I'm currently using is shared and only 15 amps.
    Last edited by miller_130xp; 08-11-2016, 12:15 AM.

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  • miller_130xp
    replied
    I plugged it into an outlet right next to the electrical panel. This time the garage lites did not dim and it made more sparks. I have not performed a destructive test yet but it looks promising.

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  • Aeronca41
    replied
    If the lights are dimming, it makes me wonder if the input voltage is dropping too low to produce a good weld. Can you try it out somewhere else where there is adequate power?

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  • miller_130xp
    replied
    the 3 seconds was a rough count. I'll time it with stopwatch to be sure. Also when I run it the lights in the garage dim. I only have it on a 15 amp shared circuit. I'm going to turn of the other appliance to see if it helps. I appreciate the help. I like this machine and hope it can be used for autobody work.

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  • Aeronca41
    replied
    Originally posted by miller_130xp View Post
    At max the timer only runs for 3 seconds? What is typical for the maximum run time for a spot weld timer?
    Just saw the link to the pic of the timer in one of your earlier posts; must have missed it before. Yours is calibrated in "cycles", which I assume means 60 cycle power line cycles. It goes up to 90 when set to MAX according to the manual. That would say the max time should be about 1.5 seconds. 90cycles x .01667 seconds per cycle = 1.5003 seconds. Now I'm curious about the 3 seconds you're experiencing-that's twice as long as the book implies.

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  • H80N
    replied
    Originally posted by aametalmaster View Post

    The nose is too wide...Bob
    I agree..........

    Originally posted by H80N View Post
    tip size dressed to no more than 1/8 in for 1.5kva config...??

    per section 8 of the manual

    https://www.docdroid.net/G2Jc7se/o74...-9-67.pdf.html

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