Syncrowave 180SD vs Thermal Arc 185TSW

[Conrad_Turbo]

Andy I am a Mech Eng. and at my day job I do a lot of Metrology work so I am very meticulous at what I do, it's my job! Haha.

I 100% agree with you that my needs should be dicated, not so much cost. I mean what's the point of buying an $1800 machine if I can't get it to do what I want it to do. I 100% agree with you.

I am in between the Dynasty 200DX and the Thermal Arc 185TSW, comparing all the welders in the $1800 price range and it looks as if the 185TSW comes out on top. Now comparing it with the nearest competition, the Dynasty 200DX, then I can see some of the shortcomings of the TA185, but then what does that say about the other welders in the $1800 price range? That's why I did so much digging just to have concrete facts to back up my purchasing decision. I don't jump into anything blind and I analize everything before making a decision.

If I could find a used 200DX for the cost or a little bit more than the TA185, I'd go with the 200DX in a heartbeat. As for your points:

1. I am not an expert TIG weldor or an expert in knowing the process, I know you along with others here are more qualified than myself. But what is the purpose of going past 65% wave balance? Won't that put a lot of heat into the tungsten? Is there a need to clean the metal with 99% of the wave and have the other 1% penetration?

2. Very interesting, I never knew that. Focus is an important aspect for the work I will be doing as some of the pieces I do are quite intricate and need good focus of the arc. How does the 180SD do in this department?

3. 120v input is a very cool feature, that's the reason why I have a Lincoln SP135 MIG in the shop, so I can have the ability to use it outside of my shop if need be. For myself personally I think having a dedicated 220v TIG is just fine, but that isn't the case for everyone and I understand that.

4. The reason I said no, is just due to hearing things about inverter based welders not being as reliable as transformer based units. Maybe I should change that whole column to yes right across the board? Although I am not sure how long TA has been producing rock solid inverter based systems, since I am sure Miller has been doing it longer. That is why I put it in the subjective column, since the answer is just something derived by word of mount...something that I cannot put too much weight on that's for sure.

Andy it's very nice having your input on this conversation, as well as everyone else here. I don't like talking to salesmen as 9 times out of 10 they spout off BS and it's nice talking to weldors who know A LOT about TIG and don't have anything to gain by my choosing one welder over another.

[ASKANDY]

Conrad,

Arc focus is very important and the TA will have better focus thatn the Sync 'cause the Sync's output is stuck at 60HZ while the TA can hit 150. This is not as high as I would like it but very sufficient for fillet welds. As for balance, I was in error. From your chart and Thermo's site, they list balance at 10-65% but they list it backwards from the rest of the industry. Most list it in a term of electrode negative. In those terms, the TA has a balance of 35-90%. The Dynasty goes to 99% EN which gives more penetration and the ability to do AC steel welding. The TA balance is a good range and you are right in saying that more EP balance does put way more heat on the tungsten. If aluminum is going to be a main part of your welding, the TA's amp range on AC is from 10-180 not 5-180, it's 5-180 on DC while the Dynasty's is 1-200 on DC and 5-200 on AC.

If I come across any used D-200's from any of my race shops, I'll let you know.

Hope this is helping you.

Andy

[Conrad_Turbo]

Arc focus is very important and the TA will have better focus thatn the Sync 'cause the Sync's output is stuck at 60HZ while the TA can hit 150. This is not as high as I would like it but very sufficient for fillet welds. As for balance, I was in error. From your chart and Thermo's site, they list balance at 10-65% but they list it backwards from the rest of the industry. Most list it in a term of electrode negative. In those terms, the TA has a balance of 35-90%. The Dynasty goes to 99% EN which gives more penetration and the ability to do AC steel welding. The TA balance is a good range and you are right in saying that more EP balance does put way more heat on the tungsten. If aluminum is going to be a main part of your welding, the TA's amp range on AC is from 10-180 not 5-180, it's 5-180 on DC while the Dynasty's is 1-200 on DC and 5-200 on AC.

If I come across any used D-200's from any of my race shops, I'll let you know.

Hope this is helping you.

Andy

Yep this definately does help.

I found this as well:

The biggest advantage of inverter based AC/DC Tigs ( other than power efficiency ) is that ability to vary the AC frequency. Typical transformer machines are limited to 60Hz ( line power ) . Inverters on the other hand can vary this to up to ( depending on machine ) 250Hz.

Typically when you weld AC @ 60Hz the tungsten balls (even when its sharpened before ) But when AC freq is turned up the tendancy to ball is reduced. This allows the AC welding with a sharpened tungsten. With a sharpened tungsten the arc is MUCH more focused ( tighter )

What does this do for you...its way easier to weld on light aluminum such as 18ga or lighter. Don't forget people have been welding pop cans for decades with old technology. This just makes it nicer. If you are a TIG welder use to 60Hz machines this is very impressive.

At higher currents ( to weld 3/16 etc ) a 60Hz machine does a fine job

from here:

So what is the advantage of welding steel with AC as compared to DC?

Point taken on the TA only able to do 10-180 while in AC mode while being able to do 5-185 in DC. Definately something I missed. Although something to note is that the 180SD does 10-180amps in both AC and DC...so bascially the same the TA185.

If you find any used 200DX machines definately shoot me an email me (conradandres at hotmail dot com), I wouldn't mind a used 200dx that compares in price to a TA185.

[ASKANDY]

Conrad,

Your quotes from the other site are interesting although I don't agree with it all. Yes...above 3/16 they all work ok but given an included angle or tight area or even an edge weld that can't roll over or pull in the edge, a machine with higher variable output freq will blow the doors of a standard 60hz unit.

As for DC, a standard transformer unit makes DC through the rectifier at 120 times a second. An inverter makes DC 60,000 times a second which makes the DC smoother throughout the entire range of the machine. If welding DC at real low amps, some machines experience arc wander because the transformer units are having a hard time keeping the dc smooth at those low amps. Not an issue with the inverters.

Have fun!

A-

[Conrad_Turbo]

Conrad,

Your quotes from the other site are interesting although I don't agree with it all. Yes...above 3/16 they all work ok but given an included angle or tight area or even an edge weld that can't roll over or pull in the edge, a machine with higher variable output freq will blow the doors of a standard 60hz unit.

As for DC, a standard transformer unit makes DC through the rectifier at 120 times a second. An inverter makes DC 60,000 times a second which makes the DC smoother throughout the entire range of the machine. If welding DC at real low amps, some machines experience arc wander because the transformer units are having a hard time keeping the dc smooth at those low amps. Not an issue with the inverters.

Have fun!

A-

Great info Andy!

The inverter machine seems to be the way to go, if I can find a used 200DX I will be going that route if not the TA185 will suffice for my needs. I just like having a safety factor on everything so it's nice knowing your welder can spit out a few more amps if need be, which is why the 200DX is nice. For cost and what I need done, the TA185 should be a very nice machine to use.

Just out of curiosity sake is there any reason to drop the AC frequency? Because the TA185 (as low as 15hz) and the 200DX (as low as 20hz) offer a lower than 60hz output.

So the 200DX can put out 1-200amps on a single phase 208-230v plug? What would the difference be if it was 3 phase power? The spec sheet seems to be a bit vague on that. My shop doesn't have 3 phase so I want to make sure that a 200DX would work to it's potential in my shop.

I feel like I should be paying you for all this advice. Haha.

[Mrc]

Great info Andy!

The inverter machine seems to be the way to go, if I can find a used 200DX I will be going that route if not the TA185 will suffice for my needs. I just like having a safety factor on everything so it's nice knowing your welder can spit out a few more amps if need be, which is why the 200DX is nice. For cost and what I need done, the TA185 should be a very nice machine to use.

Just out of curiosity sake is there any reason to drop the AC frequency? Because the TA185 (as low as 15hz) and the 200DX (as low as 20hz) offer a lower than 60hz output.

So the 200DX can put out 1-200amps on a single phase 208-230v plug? What would the difference be if it was 3 phase power? The spec sheet seems to be a bit vague on that. My shop doesn't have 3 phase so I want to make sure that a 200DX would work to it's potential in my shop.

I feel like I should be paying you for all this advice. Haha.

From the table in the spec sheet (Page 2). http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf

For TIG they do not list a 200Amp duty cycle for single phase power.

For TIG they show 150Amp at 60% duty cycle at 16 volts.
(I'll assume the 40% at 140Amp to be a misprint).

The Thermal Arc data sheet:http://www.thermadyne.com/prodspot/84_2220.pdf

shows TIG 185Amp at 30% at 17.4volts

Assuming a linear duty cycle vs output current chart the Dynasty would be about 32% at 185amps.... Very comparable. And seems to be born out by the duty cycle chart on page 3 of the miller spec sheet.

PS.. Why the difference in voltage?

Weight wise, Slight edge to the TA at 41.8 vs 45lbs

Miller has nice charts that do show 200amp output on single phase

However those charts are a bit confusing to me as they show 199amps being delivered in tig mode at 50volts on three phase, and 35volts (or so) on single phase. Both of which are much higher than the rated 16volts.

Just a few datapoints,
Mike

[fun4now]

1-200amps on a single phase 208-230v

the dynasty will run the full range on single phase, if memery serves me right blowns10 got 190+amps out of 120V plug.miller lists it at 150A at 60% duty cycle to show it can run strong at 150 the duty cycle will drop as you get in the 200A end.


as for a used dyn200 near the $1800.00 odds are verry slim on that unless ya know someone looking to go up to a 300DX and willing to make ya a deal. you might get the power sorce for $1800 but still need the rest.

if you are willing to put the time in you can get a new 25ft torch, foot peddle,gages, and tung for under $300. i did and it included 25 presharpend 1.5% lanthanated tung. from diomand ground.


if you can afford the dynasty200DX and "think the TA-185 will do what ya need" you should deffenetly get the DYN.200
if ya know ya will never need over 185 or need the higher duty cycle then get the TA185.

the extra $1000.00 now may prevent ya having to upgrade later. it is always to get a lil larger than ya need if ya can aford it.

for the record i never said TA's service was bad or questionable i just thought you should check youre area for availability.

[dumbass]

"I feel like I should be paying you for all this advice."
Maybe buy the welder from the people that put this board up? This is like racing 2 v8's. Ive seen more than one case where the one with more Hp lost to the guy with more TQ and vise versa. Came down to the driver. Hmm. I did this when i was first looking for a machine too. Same set of machines. In all the time i spent looking at stuff wondering what would be better i couldve just worked a little OT and got either. So thats what i did. Got the 200dx and didnt look back. I can run it off my dryer circuit at full output and not trip anything. THAT you cant do with the TA.

[Conrad_Turbo]

"I feel like I should be paying you for all this advice."
Maybe buy the welder from the people that put this board up? This is like racing 2 v8's. Ive seen more than one case where the one with more Hp lost to the guy with more TQ and vise versa. Came down to the driver. Hmm. I did this when i was first looking for a machine too. Same set of machines. In all the time i spent looking at stuff wondering what would be better i couldve just worked a little OT and got either. So thats what i did. Got the 200dx and didnt look back.

I would pay money for advice and consultation, but won't pay for an "inferior" product. In the $1800 range the TA185 looks to be the superior welder, but comparing a $1800 to $2800 welder...the 200DX comes out on top, not surprised. The Dynasty 200DX is a VERY nice welder, but it is over the budgeted amount I have set for a TIG machine. I have other large purchases that I have budgeted for as well, it's all about finding a balance.

I am well aware my TIG welds will all come down to the weldor, I am no expert and I have never said that. I just want a very good value TIG machine that will do what I need and still have a buffer for some room to spare.

FYI it's hard to work OT on a salary...and still run a small business in the evenings and weekends.

Got the 200dx and didnt look back. I can run it off my dryer circuit at full output and not trip anything. THAT you cant do with the TA.

Why is that? Considering the TA185 draws 29amps at it's maximum output...the 180SD in the same price range draws 54amps.

Mike I was confused about the same things you were wondering about. I am not sure what is up with those graphs, I am sure I am missing something...

fun4now I am budgeted $1800, but now I know if I had to buy an $1800 machine I'd go with the TA hands down. If the budget becomes a bit more flexible then I'd definately grab onto a 200DX simply due to the adjustable features having larger ranges.

Anyone have any pics of nice 200DX or TA185 welds?

[PAddy]

Just FYI, the TA 185TSW is likely at CSA cetification now, but the units with the CSA stamp won't be available until the last quarter of 2005, according to a rep I spoke with last month.

[fun4now]

"I feel like I should be paying you for all this advice."

you can pay for it by being here for the next guy/gal that need's a tip or just a lil help. that is the way this site stays so helpfull. and a great read

the tip about putting a washer over the broken bolt to weld a nut too was great, i'm verry good at finding a way of getting things done and have welded a nut to broken bolt befor but never thought of a washer first to keep the weld off the case and to alow for a better weld. tips like that can save people a bundle of $$$


or you could just send cash hummmmm i supose i could take a check if its easyer LOL

[dumbass]

Mr turbo, i know about running a small business. If you know about running a small business to than you would know what your time is worth. In my trade, in my area, you can bill yourself at 60/80hr labor and since its overtime, your nonmaterials cost is the same wether your there 40, 50, 60 hours a week. Point is, in the time you take looking up specs and raising "diss"cussion, you could have brought in the extra grand and bought the **** thing allready. Or you couldve had the TA and tell us about how great it is firsthand by now. And so you know, the 200dx doesnt even pull 30 amps input on the full 200 amps output. If your going to be welding at only low amps then by all means go get the TA. I hope you dont NEED the capacity though. Maybe i wasnt clear enough about why i bought the 200dx so i will lay it out for you.
1. 200amps on less than 30 amps input for tig.
2. Its made in america. There is some guy in appleton WI that gets to go to work every day and earn an honest living because I bought a miller welder and not an import.

Oh yeah, and your use of the word inferior makes it seem as your degrading the 200dx. Its by all accounts better than the other 2 welders mentioned except price(by your account also). I dont label goods as inferior just because they cost more. Maybe we should outsource everything to the "superior" cheap labor in other countries. Get real. Let me know when you get your welder, i hope you are happy with the purchase whichever one you choose.

[fun4now]

some thing to think about

this dyn200 VS TA-185 has come up many times befor due to what "seems" like similer welders.most of the time the dyn200 wins out just due to the manny here who have and rave about it.seems like every time some one new gets the dyn200 we all get a post raving about how much they just love it and cant wait to get another chance to get out to the shop to use it . and on thoues times when forced by $$$ to chouse the TA-185 we dont here anything and when asked about it the replie is "yea its a good lil welder i like it".

why would you want to get just enough to get the job done when you could get a hole lot more for a lil more. yes $800.00 is a lot but not if you look at it as a long term purchas. wouldnt you spend an extra $6,000.00 to get the extras you wanted on youre new car??? maybe an extra $25,000.00 so the new house is just right ??


you say you have the $$$$ for eather 1 so ask youre self after you buy the welder what do you want youre reply to be??yea its a good lil welder i like it" or raving about how much they just love it and cant wait to get another chance to get out to the shop to use it

[Conrad_Turbo]

Mr turbo, i know about running a small business. If you know about running a small business to than you would know what your time is worth. In my trade, in my area, you can bill yourself at 60/80hr labor and since its overtime, your nonmaterials cost is the same wether your there 40, 50, 60 hours a week. Point is, in the time you take looking up specs and raising "diss"cussion, you could have brought in the extra grand and bought the **** thing allready. Or you couldve had the TA and tell us about how great it is firsthand by now. And so you know, the 200dx doesnt even pull 30 amps input on the full 200 amps output. If your going to be welding at only low amps then by all means go get the TA. I hope you dont NEED the capacity though. Maybe i wasnt clear enough about why i bought the 200dx so i will lay it out for you.
1. 200amps on less than 30 amps input for tig.
2. Its made in america. There is some guy in appleton WI that gets to go to work every day and earn an honest living because I bought a miller welder and not an import.

Oh yeah, and your use of the word inferior makes it seem as your degrading the 200dx. Its by all accounts better than the other 2 welders mentioned except price(by your account also). I dont label goods as inferior just because they cost more. Maybe we should outsource everything to the "superior" cheap labor in other countries. Get real. Let me know when you get your welder, i hope you are happy with the purchase whichever one you choose.

Ah I don't need to argue...I am at my day job right now getting paid to research welders for my small business. I am not taking any of my personal time out of my day to find out what is the best for my business.

As for inferior, I was stating in the $1800 price range the Lincoln and Miller are "inferior" to the TA. Comparing a 200DX to a TA185 the 200DX is better (I never once said the 200DX is inferior), I am well aware of that...but it comes at nearly $1000 more, rightfully so.

If the 180SD can run on my shop wiring, then the TA185 and the 200DX can as well. No big deal.

I'm Canadian so really I can support whatever market I want, I just want to buy the best welder for my money. In the $1800 price range the TA185 comes on top, if I have the extra money I will go for the 200DX. It's easy to say buy the nicer more expensive model...but then I don't see everyone sporting a brand new Aerowave TIG machine in their garage or shops.

fun4now I will definately be sticking around, I am not an expert weldor (I've done a lot of MIG...but don't have any major TIG experience). I do design and build a lot of custom parts for autox/drag race cars all over North America. This is my site (it's pretty dated...and will have A LOT more content added in the next few months) http://ace.tupeck.com/

I participate in a lot of Toyota forums relating to Starlets, Corollas, MR2's and Alltracs. I am a moderator on a large Celica forum, celicatech.net. I am sure I can chime in once and a while around here to offer some advice. I think I'll be soaking up more than I give though.

PAddy, sounds like good news. I will keep in touch with a TA rep to see how the CSA approval process is going.

[Tailshaft56]

I was going to pick up my syncro250 this week, but now I am starting to think again. Although I could always resell it, I am getting it with a bernard chiller for $1,200 and it is only 8 years old.[/QUOTE]



If you get cold feet and you live near OK. please drop me a line. I'd be interested in the 250

Dennis