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Syncrowave 180SD vs Thermal Arc 185TSW

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  • fun4now
    replied
    1-200amps on a single phase 208-230v

    the dynasty will run the full range on single phase, if memery serves me right blowns10 got 190+amps out of 120V plug.miller lists it at 150A at 60% duty cycle to show it can run strong at 150 the duty cycle will drop as you get in the 200A end.


    as for a used dyn200 near the $1800.00 odds are verry slim on that unless ya know someone looking to go up to a 300DX and willing to make ya a deal. you might get the power sorce for $1800 but still need the rest.

    if you are willing to put the time in you can get a new 25ft torch, foot peddle,gages, and tung for under $300. i did and it included 25 presharpend 1.5% lanthanated tung. from diomand ground.


    if you can afford the dynasty200DX and "think the TA-185 will do what ya need" you should deffenetly get the DYN.200
    if ya know ya will never need over 185 or need the higher duty cycle then get the TA185.

    the extra $1000.00 now may prevent ya having to upgrade later. it is always to get a lil larger than ya need if ya can aford it.

    for the record i never said TA's service was bad or questionable i just thought you should check youre area for availability.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrc
    replied
    Originally posted by Conrad_Turbo
    Great info Andy!

    The inverter machine seems to be the way to go, if I can find a used 200DX I will be going that route if not the TA185 will suffice for my needs. I just like having a safety factor on everything so it's nice knowing your welder can spit out a few more amps if need be, which is why the 200DX is nice. For cost and what I need done, the TA185 should be a very nice machine to use.

    Just out of curiosity sake is there any reason to drop the AC frequency? Because the TA185 (as low as 15hz) and the 200DX (as low as 20hz) offer a lower than 60hz output.

    So the 200DX can put out 1-200amps on a single phase 208-230v plug? What would the difference be if it was 3 phase power? The spec sheet seems to be a bit vague on that. My shop doesn't have 3 phase so I want to make sure that a 200DX would work to it's potential in my shop.

    I feel like I should be paying you for all this advice. Haha.
    From the table in the spec sheet (Page 2). http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/AD4-8.pdf

    For TIG they do not list a 200Amp duty cycle for single phase power.

    For TIG they show 150Amp at 60% duty cycle at 16 volts.
    (I'll assume the 40% at 140Amp to be a misprint).

    The Thermal Arc data sheet:http://www.thermadyne.com/prodspot/84_2220.pdf

    shows TIG 185Amp at 30% at 17.4volts

    Assuming a linear duty cycle vs output current chart the Dynasty would be about 32% at 185amps.... Very comparable. And seems to be born out by the duty cycle chart on page 3 of the miller spec sheet.

    PS.. Why the difference in voltage?

    Weight wise, Slight edge to the TA at 41.8 vs 45lbs

    Miller has nice charts that do show 200amp output on single phase

    However those charts are a bit confusing to me as they show 199amps being delivered in tig mode at 50volts on three phase, and 35volts (or so) on single phase. Both of which are much higher than the rated 16volts.

    Just a few datapoints,
    Mike

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  • Conrad_Turbo
    replied
    Originally posted by ASKANDY
    Conrad,

    Your quotes from the other site are interesting although I don't agree with it all. Yes...above 3/16 they all work ok but given an included angle or tight area or even an edge weld that can't roll over or pull in the edge, a machine with higher variable output freq will blow the doors of a standard 60hz unit.

    As for DC, a standard transformer unit makes DC through the rectifier at 120 times a second. An inverter makes DC 60,000 times a second which makes the DC smoother throughout the entire range of the machine. If welding DC at real low amps, some machines experience arc wander because the transformer units are having a hard time keeping the dc smooth at those low amps. Not an issue with the inverters.

    Have fun!

    A-
    Great info Andy!

    The inverter machine seems to be the way to go, if I can find a used 200DX I will be going that route if not the TA185 will suffice for my needs. I just like having a safety factor on everything so it's nice knowing your welder can spit out a few more amps if need be, which is why the 200DX is nice. For cost and what I need done, the TA185 should be a very nice machine to use.

    Just out of curiosity sake is there any reason to drop the AC frequency? Because the TA185 (as low as 15hz) and the 200DX (as low as 20hz) offer a lower than 60hz output.

    So the 200DX can put out 1-200amps on a single phase 208-230v plug? What would the difference be if it was 3 phase power? The spec sheet seems to be a bit vague on that. My shop doesn't have 3 phase so I want to make sure that a 200DX would work to it's potential in my shop.

    I feel like I should be paying you for all this advice. Haha.

    Leave a comment:


  • ASKANDY
    replied
    Conrad,

    Your quotes from the other site are interesting although I don't agree with it all. Yes...above 3/16 they all work ok but given an included angle or tight area or even an edge weld that can't roll over or pull in the edge, a machine with higher variable output freq will blow the doors of a standard 60hz unit.

    As for DC, a standard transformer unit makes DC through the rectifier at 120 times a second. An inverter makes DC 60,000 times a second which makes the DC smoother throughout the entire range of the machine. If welding DC at real low amps, some machines experience arc wander because the transformer units are having a hard time keeping the dc smooth at those low amps. Not an issue with the inverters.

    Have fun!

    A-

    Leave a comment:


  • Conrad_Turbo
    replied
    Originally posted by ASKANDY
    Arc focus is very important and the TA will have better focus thatn the Sync 'cause the Sync's output is stuck at 60HZ while the TA can hit 150. This is not as high as I would like it but very sufficient for fillet welds. As for balance, I was in error. From your chart and Thermo's site, they list balance at 10-65% but they list it backwards from the rest of the industry. Most list it in a term of electrode negative. In those terms, the TA has a balance of 35-90%. The Dynasty goes to 99% EN which gives more penetration and the ability to do AC steel welding. The TA balance is a good range and you are right in saying that more EP balance does put way more heat on the tungsten. If aluminum is going to be a main part of your welding, the TA's amp range on AC is from 10-180 not 5-180, it's 5-180 on DC while the Dynasty's is 1-200 on DC and 5-200 on AC.

    If I come across any used D-200's from any of my race shops, I'll let you know.

    Hope this is helping you.

    Andy
    Yep this definately does help.

    I found this as well:

    The biggest advantage of inverter based AC/DC Tigs ( other than power efficiency ) is that ability to vary the AC frequency. Typical transformer machines are limited to 60Hz ( line power ) . Inverters on the other hand can vary this to up to ( depending on machine ) 250Hz.

    Typically when you weld AC @ 60Hz the tungsten balls (even when its sharpened before ) But when AC freq is turned up the tendancy to ball is reduced. This allows the AC welding with a sharpened tungsten. With a sharpened tungsten the arc is MUCH more focused ( tighter )

    What does this do for you...its way easier to weld on light aluminum such as 18ga or lighter. Don't forget people have been welding pop cans for decades with old technology. This just makes it nicer. If you are a TIG welder use to 60Hz machines this is very impressive.

    At higher currents ( to weld 3/16 etc ) a 60Hz machine does a fine job
    from here:

    So what is the advantage of welding steel with AC as compared to DC?

    Point taken on the TA only able to do 10-180 while in AC mode while being able to do 5-185 in DC. Definately something I missed. Although something to note is that the 180SD does 10-180amps in both AC and DC...so bascially the same the TA185.

    If you find any used 200DX machines definately shoot me an email me (conradandres at hotmail dot com), I wouldn't mind a used 200dx that compares in price to a TA185.

    Leave a comment:


  • ASKANDY
    replied
    Conrad,

    Arc focus is very important and the TA will have better focus thatn the Sync 'cause the Sync's output is stuck at 60HZ while the TA can hit 150. This is not as high as I would like it but very sufficient for fillet welds. As for balance, I was in error. From your chart and Thermo's site, they list balance at 10-65% but they list it backwards from the rest of the industry. Most list it in a term of electrode negative. In those terms, the TA has a balance of 35-90%. The Dynasty goes to 99% EN which gives more penetration and the ability to do AC steel welding. The TA balance is a good range and you are right in saying that more EP balance does put way more heat on the tungsten. If aluminum is going to be a main part of your welding, the TA's amp range on AC is from 10-180 not 5-180, it's 5-180 on DC while the Dynasty's is 1-200 on DC and 5-200 on AC.

    If I come across any used D-200's from any of my race shops, I'll let you know.

    Hope this is helping you.

    Andy

    Leave a comment:


  • Conrad_Turbo
    replied
    Andy I am a Mech Eng. and at my day job I do a lot of Metrology work so I am very meticulous at what I do, it's my job! Haha.

    I 100% agree with you that my needs should be dicated, not so much cost. I mean what's the point of buying an $1800 machine if I can't get it to do what I want it to do. I 100% agree with you.

    I am in between the Dynasty 200DX and the Thermal Arc 185TSW, comparing all the welders in the $1800 price range and it looks as if the 185TSW comes out on top. Now comparing it with the nearest competition, the Dynasty 200DX, then I can see some of the shortcomings of the TA185, but then what does that say about the other welders in the $1800 price range? That's why I did so much digging just to have concrete facts to back up my purchasing decision. I don't jump into anything blind and I analize everything before making a decision.

    If I could find a used 200DX for the cost or a little bit more than the TA185, I'd go with the 200DX in a heartbeat. As for your points:

    1. I am not an expert TIG weldor or an expert in knowing the process, I know you along with others here are more qualified than myself. But what is the purpose of going past 65% wave balance? Won't that put a lot of heat into the tungsten? Is there a need to clean the metal with 99% of the wave and have the other 1% penetration?

    2. Very interesting, I never knew that. Focus is an important aspect for the work I will be doing as some of the pieces I do are quite intricate and need good focus of the arc. How does the 180SD do in this department?

    3. 120v input is a very cool feature, that's the reason why I have a Lincoln SP135 MIG in the shop, so I can have the ability to use it outside of my shop if need be. For myself personally I think having a dedicated 220v TIG is just fine, but that isn't the case for everyone and I understand that.

    4. The reason I said no, is just due to hearing things about inverter based welders not being as reliable as transformer based units. Maybe I should change that whole column to yes right across the board? Although I am not sure how long TA has been producing rock solid inverter based systems, since I am sure Miller has been doing it longer. That is why I put it in the subjective column, since the answer is just something derived by word of mount...something that I cannot put too much weight on that's for sure.

    Andy it's very nice having your input on this conversation, as well as everyone else here. I don't like talking to salesmen as 9 times out of 10 they spout off BS and it's nice talking to weldors who know A LOT about TIG and don't have anything to gain by my choosing one welder over another.

    Leave a comment:


  • ASKANDY
    replied
    Rain,
    Like I say, I think the Thermo fits an area between the Sync and the Dynasty and if that fits your needs than it could be the machine for you. It is a good topic to be talked about and for those making decisions based on funds available, the thermo is an attractive unit. For those looking at arc performance, portability, service etc.. Then the Dynasty would be my first choice. Either way you decide to go, I'm sure you will bring good insite to your new experiences.

    Good luck!

    Andy

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott V
    replied
    Sanex does not build cheap stuff, It's high quality.
    http://www.sanrex.com/

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrc
    replied
    Extra amps...

    Originally posted by fun4now
    if this is youre choice options, then the dynasty if you can swing the extra $$$ is a better choice.
    the dynasty will give you 15exta amps on the top end and will draw 10amps less comming out of the wall, with the 110V option you can literaly plug it into anything, including a small genny for a quick fix in the middle of no where.it also burns stick great and you know that support from miller will be there if ever you should need it.
    i had the same choices that you now face a lil wile back and after checking and rechecking and fighting with the $$ isue i decided the dyn200DX is realy a better way to go.unforchanetly in my situation $$$ is a big problem, and as such a family emergency took my tig $$$ so i am saving again some day ill get there.
    I've been doing the same evaulation and I noted one interesting thing.

    The charts for the dynasty only show 200amp performance when running on 3phase power. On single phase power, the current draw and supply are very similar.

    Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott V
    replied
    TA can only get to 65%

    90% electrode negative. 65% electrode +

    Leave a comment:


  • ASKANDY
    replied
    2 pennies worth.

    Well I've been catching your issue here off and on and even replied way back on page 1 about your differences between the Sync and TA and even though those aren't a good comparison of machine types, the Dyn200 and TA are closer but the Dynasty does outshine the TA in quite a few pertinent areas.

    1- The Dynasty's balance can go to 99% while the TA can only get to 65%. **** our Sync 180 can get to 68%! So the Balance in the TA is far lacking.

    2- The Dynasty output freq gets up to 250HZ which gives you a much tighter weld focus than the 150 hz that the TA gives. This allows for much tighter areas and included angles to be easier welded.

    3- For me, the need for 120v input is a big deal as I take mine to the track and wherever to do a repair off a generator or just plug into the nearest outlet. I have to take it over to fix a railing at my rental property this weekend and it's just plug into the exterior outlet and weld on.

    4- On your sheet, you have "proven power supply" "NO" I'd way have to dissagree on that one. Our inverters have been around and proven for 15 yrs. The Dynasty family started about 9 years ago and all our inverters carry the same 3 year warranty as any of our standard transformer units.

    The TA is a nice unit but just because it's an inverter, doesn't mean it's in the same catagory as the Dynasty. It fills in a nitch BETWEEN the Sync 180 (which the TA has the upper hand) and the Dynasty (where the Dynasty can rock 1/4" if needed).

    To compare the added $700 cost of the Dynasty as a negative on the Dynasty is unfair when there is so much more to the Dynasty in electronics and ability.

    You are doing a lot of research which is very good but don't let the $$ dictate your needs. Let your needs dictate how much to spend.
    If this is purely a money issue and you can sacrifice arc performance and portability, go with the TA.

    One more observation...
    You seem to be a very meticulous individual that goes the extra mile at whatever you do and I'd hate for you to have to settle on a machine that could limit you more in the way of performance. Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy your welding adventures!

    Andy

    Leave a comment:


  • Scott V
    replied
    [I might try doing some poking around at some ESAB models and see how they stack up as well. I haven’t looked too much in their area yet.]


    Really esab does not stack up too well. The ac/dc rectifier machines weld
    very nice but are a bit dated in some areas. They really do not have any
    real good ac/dc inverters. One reason is Europe does not weld as much
    aluminum as the USA. Some of their DC welding machines are very good.

    The Esab rep and other have been trying to get them up to speed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conrad_Turbo
    replied
    Originally posted by rain252
    Nice spreadsheet, CT. That is helpful to compare.
    Remember, for that $2400, I think the 200DX is power source only! No torch, no amptrol. By the time you get that stuff too, you're looking at $1,000-1,100 more $ than the TA185.

    Also, the TA185 has a 30% duty cycle in tig at 185 amps "rated" output (230v, 1-phase in). That means it actually has a higher "full" output, but likely with a duty cycyle so small as to be negligible. What is the duty cycle of the 200DX at 200 amps?
    Its hard to tell from looking at the performance curves in the operator manual.
    If it is 200 amps at 30% duty cycle, then it IS a higher output machine than the TA185. Its just important to compare apples to apples.
    Ya it just makes it easier to compare the specs of machines by throwing it all in excel, sure there are some things here and there that are left out, but the heart of what the welder can do is there.

    Yikes so for over 3 grand you can get a 200dx then hey? It seems to be the big brother version of the TA185 by the looks of thing. The 200dx is definitely a superior machine…but then at double the price…it should be. The features the TA has is quite impressive though considering it’s half the cost, sure it’s limited in quite a few areas but when you compare it to the other $1800 TIG machines…it’s far superior (spec wise anyways), from what I see anyways.

    Originally posted by JET
    Conrad, the duty cycle you have listed for the TA185 is for stick, not TIG. I too went through this same decision just a bit ago. I was set on getting a used Syncro250 after being told the TA185 wouldn't be up to the task of doing 1/8". You are looking at about a 30% duty cycle on 1/8". That is pretty poor when you are talking production.

    I was going to pick up my syncro250 this week, but now I am starting to think again. Although I could always resell it, I am getting it with a bernard chiller for $1,200 and it is only 8 years old.
    Oops my bad, I will correct that (instead of 26v it’s supposed to be 16v), what about Miller’s specs? That’s for stick as well? I am not a welding engineer, but why does the stick have a higher voltage output as compared to the TIG process?

    Right now I run a small fab shop so we aren’t into high production runs as we do a lot of custom one off pieces. So duty cycle is important (to a point), but with our MIG machines we haven’t exceeded the duty cycle on them, and some are 30% duty as well.

    I would like to get a lightly used TIG machine but people in my area overpay A LOT for fabrication equipment. I went to a bankruptcy auction for a large aluminum fab shop a few months back…there were people paying more than brand new price for a welder that was used 8hrs a day, every day for at least 4 years. I’m just not that oblivious and I just want a good deal for my money. That’s the reason why I am spending so much time now weighing in the pro’s and cons of either machine.

    I might try doing some poking around at some ESAB models and see how they stack up as well. I haven’t looked too much in their area yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnV
    replied
    Rain252...the site where i got my TA-185 was www.aaaweldingsupply.com not www.weldingsupply.com

    John

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