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Bottom of the bottle argon

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  • burninbriar
    replied
    I did not mean to imply that the problem was coused becouse the bottle is new or that it was not vacumed.I just repeated what the supplyer told me.Even if I never have the problem again I would still like to know the anser and if I find it I will post it for others to read.I am not the only one who experianced this problem as evident in these posts and by word of my supplyer.

    Leave a comment:


  • klsm54
    replied
    The mystery is....why did the gas work fine until it got down to 300 psig ???

    I have been involved in mixing argon mixes, and in troubleshooting argon filling procedures on more than one occaision.

    It is a wives tale that gas stratifies, or layers itself in a cylinder. True, when you first fill a cylinder, especially if a liquid, such as CO2 is added first, then filled immediately with high pressure argon, the CO2 will stay in the bottom.With this condition, you will have a mix richer in argon at the top of the tank, and richer in CO2 at the bottom. So with a 75 Argon/25CO2 mix, in a cylinder without a dip tube, you may start out at 95% Argon/5% CO2, and end up with a mix of maybe 65% Argon/35% CO2. That is if you use the tank the day it was filled, or shortly thereafter. If the tank sits for a week, the mix will become more accurate, with, depending on ambient temps and the amount the cylider is moved, the mix reaching proper proportions in 2-3 weeks. I have tested it, in our facility, and at customers, and it has always held true.

    In the old days, fill plants rolled cylinders, on a set of turning rolls, or sometimes just by laying them on the floor and kicking them back and forth...HONEST! It works! Tested, more than once, 100% success.

    But, with ambient air, or its two major components, Nitrogen and Oxygen. While some stratification can occurr in the filling operation, you will always get some contamination, even if using the gas soon after filling. We had a blow-off valve back leaking when we were filling argon. It let a small amount of ambient air into the fill manifold when we filled. The argon still tested over 99% Pure. Nobody welding Aluminum with the mig process ever reported a problem. But, a large Tig user had major problems. They had those problems with Full Cylinders, half full cylinders, and nearly empty cylinders. In other words the ambient air was pretty much spread throughout the entire contents of the cylinder. PP grade Argon made the problem go away, but it took us quite some time to find that leaking blow-off valve. Running the vacum pump with just one small cylinder on the manifold, and failing to reach a vacum higher than 32-33 inches, told us we had a problem. Finding that small leak was a long process, but when we did, the customer went back to regular argon, problem solved.

    So after many years of playing with Argon, and mixes, I do not doubt for one minute that you had a bad tank of gas, but I can't subscribe to the "new bottle" or "forgot to Vacum" theory. The fact that the fill plant admits to having problems elsewhere with their gas, sounds like a problem to me. If you ever get a definitive answer as to what the problem was, I would sure like to hear it.

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  • burninbriar
    replied
    I talked to my gas supplyer today and he claims that all the argon bottles are put under a vacume befor filling to remove impureitys.He told me another big customer complaines of the same problem every now and then.He has no explanation for it but acknowledges that it does happen.

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  • GTA/SPEC
    replied
    Originally posted by grocery_getter

    Now I switch and only use pre-purified argon. These guys have their own commited Argon tank and the gas is pure to 99.9998%. Now we are cooking with real gas (pun intended)

    Andre

    I think you have too many 9s.

    99.9998 is not avaliable
    99.9997 is Research Grade 5.7
    99.9995 is Ultra Carrier Grade 5.5
    99.999 is Ultra High Purity Grade 5.0
    99.998 is Zero Grade 0.5 (Zero THC Total Hydrocarbons)
    or PrePurified Grade 4.8


    I dont use cylinders. My argon is drawn off of liquid. The purity of cryogenic argon is excellent, without spending too much.

    Also, if you went to the extent of getting PP argon, without changing to a high purity gas solinoid, and high quality gas line (pre-outgased tubing) you are re-contaminating your argon before it leaves your torch. Look at the pic and see what the difference can be between 2 types of hose.

    We use actuated stainless ball valves instead of the factory solinoid, rigid stainless tubing, and HP flex line to the torch.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • psomero
    replied
    Originally posted by burninbriar
    cylinder upside down

    BE CAREFUL!

    one slip and you'll have a giant bottle rocket (pun intended) on your hands

    Leave a comment:


  • burninbriar
    replied
    I own both my bottles,the 155 I bought used and exchange it when emty.I bought the 80 brand new and use it to keep me going when the 155 goes emty.Since the small 80 sits a long time between refills I decided to refill it instead of exchange becouse its brand new and the valve should be trust worthy.Also being brand new I figure this is a good fall back incase I have welding problems.What I mean by that is I know that tank has only had argon in it becouse I bought it brand new.Ironicly thats the bottle giveing me the trouble.

    Leave a comment:


  • fun4now
    replied
    left over c-25

    would be interesting to find out if it has a draw straw in the tank. if it dose not and it draws from the top you would be able to purge it after filling and the bad gas would be on top and first to come out, not last maybee it is not oxygen that is causing the problem, would o2 left in it if it was a C25 tank befor have the same result on the TIG weld.


    grocery_getter was pointing to something along thouse lines with the designated tank i think.
    i too own some tanks and rent some but they just swap out the tank eathere way so own or rent i never get my bottle back so there is no telling what was in it befor they filled it. i have not had any truble as i just MIG steel right now and dont think the make up is quite as critical.

    Leave a comment:


  • burninbriar
    replied
    Grocery_getter
    I was following youre thread on the bad Al welds.What through me was that my argon worked fine at the beginning and then got bad.The label on mine said "extra pure",I'l have to check to see if that is the same as pre-pureifyed.I have a feeling that it was just never purged befor being filled.

    Leave a comment:


  • grocery_getter
    replied
    Bad gas is a reality in life

    I've had encounter a couple bad Argon in the past, especially with cylinders from Liquid Air. Check the sticker on the bottle to see who filled it. The cheaper Argon gas is not filled into commited Argon tanks. That means that they will grab what tank they have, fill the gas and slap new sticker that says tank has Argon in it.

    On my last thread on this board, I was trying to troubleshoot a really bad weld on Al. I thought that it was the brand new welding machine that went bad. Turns out the gas is the culprit. I still have 500psi in that tank and it weld Al like crap.

    It only takes me one time to realize that you do get what you pay for even when you are buying simple things like a tank of Argon!

    Now I switch and only use pre-purified argon. These guys have their own commited Argon tank and the gas is pure to 99.9998%. Now we are cooking with real gas (pun intended)

    Andre

    Leave a comment:


  • burninbriar
    replied
    Originally posted by ASKANDY
    If you were getting contamination in the weld, it sounds like the bottle wasn't puged well and your running into bad gas. I've even had that happen with 500lbs already. I just brought the bottle back and they gave me a free full one.

    Andy
    I feel kind of dumb now,never thought to just take it back.At least I now know that the problem does exist and what to do next time.Hopefully there wont be a next time.I have used a lot of bottled gasses in my time and this is my first bad one that I now of.
    Thanks for giveing me the peace of mind to know that this does happan at times.

    Leave a comment:


  • ASKANDY
    replied
    If you were getting contamination in the weld, it sounds like the bottle wasn't puged well and your running into bad gas. I've even had that happen with 500lbs already. I just brought the bottle back and they gave me a free full one.

    Andy

    Leave a comment:


  • timw
    replied
    I would turn it up side down and try it, you got nothing to loose. That would tell you if specific gravity of the gas is a factor. you need to empty it either way just to be sure.
    I own my bottles but they just exchange them when I refill so it's hard to say where they have been.

    Leave a comment:


  • burninbriar
    replied
    My guage is brand new and when I drained the cylinder there was considerable presure and it took a while to drain down.Also if the ball showes 18 cf thats what you are getting regardless of whats in the tank.

    Leave a comment:


  • arcalaska
    replied
    I would have to say that your bottle is MT. Your pressure guage is most likely not very accurate on the lower end, and your not getting a good enough flow rate for proper shielding. Just get another bottle, definately not worth fretting over.

    Leave a comment:


  • burninbriar
    replied
    Well,I decided to drain my cylinder upside down and see if that makes a difference on my next fill up.The argon cant change properties so there must be atmospheric air in the bottle.The only thing that makes sence to me is that the bottle was never purged of the air inside befor the first filling.
    I'm interested in knowing how many other people have had this happen?

    Leave a comment:

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