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acctual poll: how young

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  • acctual poll: how young

    I want to make a poll to see whats the youngest age someone should or could buy their own welder. Unfortunatly I am not an adult and i live with my parents and they wont let me get one untill i am 16 but I am currently 14. That is why I want to see what you think. I say as long as you know what you are doing you can go ahead at 14 yrs. what do you think?
    No, that seems about normal
    Yes, that seems too fast
    Canadian eh!
    Canadian beer too strong for ya? Go to the USA! (no offence but american beer tastes like water compared to canadian)

  • #2
    I am not going to say what your parents should be doing but these are my personal feelings. Kids should be allowed to do this stuff as soon as they want. Whatw with some "adults" anyway, it seems obscene to strangle a kid until a certain age. That is a totally illogigal thought. Tell them you have thought it over and you want to take up hanging out at pool halls, drinking beer, smokin dope and chasin women, sounds like a better way to spend a couple of years. Welding and fab work is the ideal way to learn to coordinate the brain and the hands and thats the thing that made humans the succesful species they are. Here is a good point.


    • #3
      David Gergen, editor-at-large of "U.S. News & World Report," engages Frank Wilson, a neurologist and author of "The Hand: How Its Use Shapes the Brain, Language, and Human Culture."

      DAVID GERGEN: Dr. Wilson, as a neurologist, how did you become so fascinated with the human hand?

      FRANK R. WILSON, Author, "The Hand:" Well, it actually started some years ago. At that time my daughter was a sort of an up-start young pianist. She was getting ready for a recital, and she was playing a piece that all 12-year-old girls like to play; it's called "The Fantasy Impromptu." It's a Chopin piece. And I had never really watched her hands. And it struck me suddenly that there was something very special about what was happening in front of my eyes. I was looking at a neurologic phenomenon, a very human phenomenon, and I didn't really understand it. So I asked myself: What is it that makes her fingers go so fast? In other words, what is it about the brain that explains how the hands work? And it was after that, that the question sort of turned upside down, and it became the question about what do the hands have to do with how the brain works, or how the brain is organized, which is what my book is about.

      DAVID GERGEN: So tell us -- how does the hand influence how the brain works?

      FRANK R. WILSON: Well, it's a long story - I mean, it's several million years long. What I spent time working on was the question of the actual distinctive organization of the brain. And to put that in a nutshell, the hand, the human hand, starting about three million years ago, began to change very subtly. Everybody knows that our ancestors came down from the trees. As Darwin observed, animals that were walking around on four limbs could stand up, and the hands then became free to do other things. And so we had the opportunity; we had the opportunity beginning at that time to do things with the hands. Now, of course, monkeys, chimpanzees, and guerrillas have hands very like ours but not exactly like ours. And there were some subtle anatomic changes in the hand that make it work in a way that really changed the survival prospects of our ancestors once they got on the ground.

      DAVID GERGEN: And that began to interact with the brain; the hand began changing the brain, in effect?

      FRANK R. WILSON: Well, the hand and the brain really grew up together over some millions of years, and the result of that was that an enormous part of the control apparatus of the human brain is now really specialized for skilled use of the hands. It's a big story, way too big a story for us to go into in detail here, but it's really the crux of what then becomes an issue, I think, in human development, because you can compress the anthropology story in such a way that you can ask the question about us as individual human beings. What is it about the hand that accounts for the way we as individuals develop? And that's another very interesting story.

      DAVID GERGEN: Well, I'd like to pursue that because one of the main themes of your book is that the hand traditionally has been very important to human education of an individual and increasingly you believe in modern education, we're ignoring the importance of manual dexterity and manual learning.

      FRANK R. WILSON: There has been a prejudice that manual labor is somehow demeaning. And, in fact, British surgeons, for example, were called "Mister," because to be a real physician, a real doctor, why you actually were doing something with your brain, rather than your hands -- and what's been missing in this story is that particularly in early childhood, the experience that begins around the age of one, when a child begins to be able to control individual finger movements, the child gets up off its bottom, starts walking around and exploring the world, and actually begins using words for the first time -- what we really think of as the beginning of human thought and human individually -- is really tied up with these chronologically very, very tightly controlled events that all children go through. Now once children get into school this sort of learning machine that was given to us by biology is sort of preempted by a culture that says, well, we would like our sons and daughters to go to Harvard, and we would like them to be computer scientists and we would like them to be aeronautical engineers, so, well, we'll now take that over, and we will fill the child with the information that the child needs. Unfortunately that does violence psychologically to the child, and it also, unfortunately, divorces that child from the physical world at a time when that child has to know what the world really is about. It's a world that you can't really quite get through the computer. You really get it better outside throwing snow balls and mud balls and playing with cats and animals and toys and making things up.

      DAVID GERGEN: And actually working with those kind of things and working with your hands - it actually you more or teaches you other things that you don't learn if it's all cognitive.

      FRANK R. WILSON: Well, you can't really separate what's in the mind from what's in the body. Knowledge really is the whole behavior of the whole organism. And the mistake that we've made - I think -- isn't focusing on education. It's thinking that you can educate the mind by itself.

      DAVID GERGEN: You've noticed that among some engineers-new engineers that there may be something missing in their education earlier, which distinguishes them from older engineers.

      FRANK R. WILSON: Yes. Earlier we discussed this, and this is actually an interesting story, and this will prove that I'm not against computers or the Internet. I put my E-mail address on the dust jacket of the book, hoping that people would communicate with me. The publisher was terrified, that this was an awful mistake, but I said, no, I want to hear what people have to say. The very first message that I got after the book was published was from a man who owns a - he's a car mechanic - and he owns a shop in southern California. And we've had very many conversations, but what it really came down to was that he became concerned as a man who hires high school students as apprentices to work in his shop, that these kids were not getting it; he could not teach them; there was something that they just didn't seem to be able to understand. And he had a phone call from the vice president of an engineering firm, and as he tells me this story, the vice president said, you know, we're having trouble with our younger engineers, they're very brilliant; they're very well educated; but when we give them a problem that has to do with spatial relations, and designing an object, let's say a piece that goes into a space capsule, a module of some kind, and there's something that's three-dimensional about it that has to be fixed, they just don't seem to understand it, and so we don't hire any engineers anymore - no matter where they come from -- unless they've had working experience as mechanics. So we're coming to the edge of, I think, a discovery about - about education, which is that you can't really skip this experience. It's important for children to have hands-on experience when they're young.

      DAVID GERGEN: So parents ought to allow their children to have that - satisfy their curiosity working with their hands, working inside an automobile, working with other things like that?

      FRANK R. WILSON: It couldn't be more important. And, you know, music lessons or playing with animals - I mean there are any number of experiences that kids ought to have, but you can't rush that. Biology took a long time to get us this gift that we have, this marriage of hand and mind, and it's a mistake, I think.

      DAVID GERGEN: Dr. Wilson, let me ask you one other question because you write about this so enthusiastically, and that is the degree of emotional satisfaction that so many people have working with their hands - painters, sculptors, people who climb mountains, and others.

      FRANK R. WILSON: That was really what got me started. I was interested in the emotional quality of musicians' work, and I thought, well, maybe it's just because they're professional emoters; they're supposed to be emotional. But I wondered then if it might be true of others. And I met a young man who was a puppeteer in Dusseldorf and he had spent his whole life working with puppets, and his emotional feelings - the passion and really the inventiveness that he brought to his work I found again and again and again in people who had decided that they really wanted to be in charge of what they were doing, and it was really tied up with the hands. I've noticed now since I started working on the book about what happens to people with recreational lives. And there was a piece in the New York Times a few months back about the explosion of woodworking, and that it's now a multi-billion dollar business; now, all these guys who are sitting in offices, working over financial statements and spreadsheets and so forth, they can't wait to get out of there and build a cabinet. And there's a reason for that. It's much more fulfilling for people. They have some control over the outcome. They have some independence; they get some satisfaction. They see results, and they have to think problems through themselves.


      • #4

        Good idea! lol they also have a fear of a house fire eventhough the basement is concrete but what ever ya wanna think is fine??? geez i wish i was 16!
        Canadian eh!
        Canadian beer too strong for ya? Go to the USA! (no offence but american beer tastes like water compared to canadian)


        • #5
          Fire is a very real concern, so is smoke and fumes, care should be taken. It is their home so obviously what they say goes. If they smoke it would throw that theory out the window though, smoking is one of the biggest fire concerns.


          • #6

            but its completely cement and i have a basically new air filtration system, whatever.
            Canadian eh!
            Canadian beer too strong for ya? Go to the USA! (no offence but american beer tastes like water compared to canadian)


            • #7
              do they have a garage?

              regardless, if you want to weld in the basement, a welding hood, and some type of exhaust fan, blowing fumes out of an exhaust pipe through one of the basement windows would be the best solution.

              Welding gasses are almost always toxic gasses that are harmful to the welder and those around him.

              It sounds like maybe your parents don't know much about welding, that is fine, take some classes so the instructor can vouge for your ability to operate a welder, there are some very important safety rules that must be followed, and some very good basic information that you will be lacking without a class or two on the subject.

              Personally the first time I welded was when I was 12 years old, in shop class, I used an oxygen and acetylene torch setup to weld two plates together, I liked it quite a bit, but my parents discouraged me as well.

              I ended up teaching myself basically every technical skill to this day. And used classes to accelerate this process in some cases.
              Don't let your parents inhibit you, but you have to build trust and respect with them, show them your willing to prove your ability through some classes.

              Besides you get free practice out of the deal, and you could probably start a few projects there.

              Good Luck!!!


              • #8
                This is a subject that's very close to me. My son Cody (aka Little Bulldog) has been welding with me for about 3yrs. He just turned 10. I can also tell you that he can weld better then most of my (adult) friends. Look up the post that I have started you'll see what I mean. I don't think that the age of the person is all that important. I think the level of involvement that the parent / teacher is much more important. What I mean is if the parent / teacher isn't willing to devote 100% of his / her attention to the student then neither one should be in the shop. I would never hand my son a loaded gun and walk away... So then why would I hand my son a hot stinger and walk away? I treat my son like a friend. We play together, we work together and we learn together. Don't get me wrong I am the parent and I'm a very strick parent! He knows he must toe the line... He also knows that when we are in the shop he follows the rules every rule! If he forgets he doesn't stay in the shop. Thats it his day is done. I take a great deal of pride in the relationship that he and I have. I would never do something that would hurt him. I try my best to teach proper welding technique and shop safety. Having him in the shop makes me be more safe. I feel that one must lead by example. Don't make rules that you yourself don't follow. As far as fire goes this is a very real threat. It goes back to paying attention to what your doing. Don't take anything for granted. Check and double check your shop before closing the door for the last time of the day. Fumes can be handled with the PROPER ventilation and precautions. Samething do it right! Don't cut corners here. We build alot of custom things for the concrete block industry and we both make good money. That's right my 10 yr old gets paid for what he does. He's an important part of our operation. So he also learns responsibility.He knows to save money if he wants something he buys it. You know, thinking about it he hasn't asked to buy any video games. Usually he wants tools or something such as that. He's a good welder but much more than that he's a great person.
                5 Passport Pluses
                2 MM 212's
                MM 210
                MM 251 MIA
                MM 350 P w/Python
                Syncrowave 250
                w/ tig runner
                Trailblazer 302
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                2 Black BWEs
                Joker BWE
                Star & stripe BWE Digital
                2 star & stripe xlix's

                REAL TRUCKS RATTLE
                CUMMINS BABY


                • #9
                  thanks bull dog, kinda like me but im not 10, my family thinks in crazy at christmas time when i ask for tools instaed of an x-box or somthing.
                  Canadian eh!
                  Canadian beer too strong for ya? Go to the USA! (no offence but american beer tastes like water compared to canadian)


                  • #10
                    Another oppinion question...

                    how do you set up your basments/shops so that slag/sparks dont start a fire?
                    Canadian eh!
                    Canadian beer too strong for ya? Go to the USA! (no offence but american beer tastes like water compared to canadian)


                    • #11
                      do a search on "welding hood" like I mentioned earlier, one example would be basically a booth, completely metal, sometimes the entrance will be covered with a curtain made out of fire retardent cloth. Inside the booth, you have provisions for a table or grate to weld on, and some ducting for air/exhaust tubing. This tubing can be connected to a vacuum or waste fan which will blow the gasses (produced when metal becomes molten and burns off impurities, etc, etc) out of the exhaust tube, the other end of the tubing would have to be roughted outside, just like a clothes dryer exhaust.

                      A big part of welding is preperation, which sometimes includes alot of grinding, which gives alot of powder metal, and sparks, so you'd want your booth to be big enough to do some grinding in as well.

                      Insulating a garage, and tossing a torpedo heater in a garage might be a smarter option.
                      By the way, I'm not terribly far from you, I'm in Detroit, MI about 15 minutes north and west, and I've spend a better part of the day out in my non-insulated garage. Including doing a bit of welding.

                      Mine is not insulated very well, so a diesel torpedo heater is a cheap option for me, and alot of the fumes escape from the garage (for any worry of carbon monoxide). I'm also installing a carbon monoxide detector tonight. Insulation, and natural gas heat would be the best option.

                      Part of the reason why your parents might not want you to weld, is they may think your nature is to be absent minded or wreckless, and they just don't want an accident to happen.

                      Everybody is different, some are less risk than others in general, but everyone has to be careful around welding equipment. When you buy something like a Lincoln Weldpak 3200 HD, it includes a video which shows some good safety items, this is something you could watch with your parents, and then make further determinations.
                      There is also a general manual on the millerwelds site, covering safety items for any type of welding.

                      keep warm!!!


                      • #12
                        Now, who voted that you must be 18 to weld!? This has no significance to me personally because I'm 26 and I learned to TIG a year ago, but...

                        To say you must be 18 to use a welder makes no sense whatsoever. You can drive a car on the interstate, but you cant weld? Hmm...

                        d-dawgg, like Teeps said, your parent's evaluation of you is what it is and we can't judge that. But if I had a son or daughter your age and they were interested in things like welding and metal fab I would be totally excited. Seriously, I think skateboarding is more dangerous than welding as long as you are safe about it. I've hurt myself badly on my skateboard several times but never with my welder. In fact, my soldering iron and hot glue gun have done me more harm than my welder has.

                        Now, on their side, consider that the house you live in is probably the single most expensive thing they have ever invested it, and to burn it down would be a major disaster because it also houses just about everything they, and you, own. You'll have to convince them that you can weld safely in their home. You will never convince them of this if you do anything but TIG. As was said, MIG and stick make sparks and fumes, and I wouldn't recommend using an oxy/gas setup inside either.

                        Good luck!


                        • #13
                          its not the number. its a attitude & ability.


                          • #14
                            i would teah a 12 year old with the right attitude.

                            my son is 5 and injoys watching me weld and work in the shop he will be welding by the time he is 10/12 but only with me.

                            it realy comes down to what your parents intrest are, i think if youre father was a welder and you were a responsible kid we would not be having this pole it is after all youre parents that need to be ok with it not us

                            good luck
                            thanks for the help
                            hope i helped
                            feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
                            summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.


                            • #15
                              I don't believe in a set age for learning how to weld either.

                              The best thing you can do in your present situation is build a bridge for your parents to walk across. One way to do this is by reading all you can about welding, this step will show them you are serious and not playing around. Also you can ask your parents to please take you to a welding distributor where they can discuss you love of welding with a professional and have him show them some Miller welding equipment, that might be all it takes to reassure them and get you started. Good luck kid.