TIG input amperage

[wendell]

I just realized that the input amperage of my syncrowave 300 is 100A. I've been running it on a 60A breaker for the last three months. I've got 200A service to my shop and have since installed a 100A breaker. While it seemed to work fine on 60A, did I do any damage to the equipment by opperating it below its recogmented input amperage? (It never tripped the 60A breaker)

Hope being an idiot didn't srew up my TIG. Any input would be great

[dyn88]

the machine will only use current(amperage) and the breaker will not supply the machine with more or less current, only will iy trip when the current going to the machine excedes 60 amps for an extended period of time(it then gets hot and the bimetal strip distorts and flips the switch.
PUT THE 60 AMP BREAKER BACK IN THE SLOT IMMEDIATELY

the breakers that are used arethere to protect against fire. The wires running to the synchrowave are only rated for 60 amps of current, by installing a larger breaker you have increased the chance of overloading the wires. I have said it before. A liscenced electrician is much cheaper than a hotel room after your house burns down.

[Sberry]

I run mine on a 60 and never had a problem. It requires a number 2 wire when running it on a 100 brkr. The only reason I didnt run it was I didnt have a number 2 cord around and if you are running an undersize wire you need to undersize the breaker. I know that seems contrary to some of my posts on wire sizing but with this machine its what is called for in the manual. This machine has a fairly high duty cycle and turning it way up and running it a long time could overheat a number 6. Its never been a problem for me though and seems I have run about 8 or 10 mins at 200A, didnt trip the 60 so I never bothered to change it out.

[aphexafx]

>>PUT THE 60 AMP BREAKER BACK IN THE SLOT IMMEDIATELY

Needed to stress that point. Do as dyn88 says because it's serious.

When you pull current through a conductor (wire) the movement of electrons creates friction, just like when you rub sticks together. The amount of frictional heating of a conductor can be calculated as the number of electrons moving through the wire per second (Amps) against the sectional area of the conductor itself. Basically, the larger the conductor, the less frictional heat a given number of amps will generate in the conductor.

If the receptacle you are plugging your 180 into has a 60A breaker on the other end, then that means that, everything else unknown, the wire (conductor) in the walls is rated at 60A or less.

As was said, the breaker you removed does nothing except prevent more than 60A from being pulled through those wires. By installing a 100A breaker you have created the possibility of drawing 100A through those wires. If the wires are too small they will respond by heating. If they heat too much they will burn, ignite the things around them, etc. This is obviously bad!

Here are some examples of pulling lots of current through a wire, thus generating heat from electron friction: a light bulb filament, an electric space heater filament, the heating element in your oven. These are all designed to carry enough current to make them heat up. Your shop wiring is not.

So, put the 60A breaker back on that circuit and if you want, have an electrician run the proper gauge wire to your shop and create a new 100A circuit for your welder. But this isn't going to be necessary until you start tripping your current 60A circuit, and it sounds like you aren't doing that yet.

BTW, if your 60A breaker is old or hard to switch, spend the money to replace it. It is important that it works.

[wendell]

This is getting scary.

The two times I've interacted with my local Miller rep have been trouble. The first time was just annoying (said I couldn't get a switch for my foot pedal because miller makes too amny different foot pedals...) But this time the missinformation was potentially dangerous. The worst part is that I didn't even solicit the advise. While picking up some filler the owner heard I had a 300 and went out of his way to tell me that i HAD to get a 100A breaker imright away or the machine wouldn't get enough current to opperate correctly.

dyn88,
thanks for the reply. Why the **** would I need a bigger breaker if I'm not tripping the 60A! How the **** could a breaker limit the amount of current getting to the machine! I'm an idiot for even thinking about this.

Aphex,
big Aphex fan or is your name R.D. James? I've got a pretty good stack of Aphex vinyl. Thanks for the disertation on current and resistance. Like I said above, I'm an idiot and this shouldn't have gone as far as it did.

Its crazy that I can't trust the authorized Miller rep and I have to depend on faceless strangers from the internet. Thanks again, keep in tranglin'

[Mike W]

You are not going to draw the maximum input current of the machine unless you are welding at the maximum output current. A clamp on ammeter is a useful tool to have.

[Sberry]

The breaker does limit the current, but only above 60A. Some machines have allowances for wiring coming in,,, like the 180 allows number 8 on a 60 as I recall. But its rated as per the duty cycle of the machine. The 300 is rated differently and likely because it is used in industrial settings where it could get pushed hard. If its wired for the full capacity of the machine it allows for bigger breakers in case of nussiance tripping on startup, etc. In theory with a number 2 wire you could use a 150A breaker or even a 200 if it had to. But once you connect it with a wire less than the recommended size you need to limit it with a breaker of the right size. If it had a number 2 in theory it wouldnt overheat the wire no matter how hard you ran the machine as the welder only outputs 300A. Here is a good one but probably shouldnt follow the minimums but it is an example. Lincoln AC225 allows number 12 provided its single circuit in pipe on a 50A circuit. (best follow the duty cycle closely and not in Arizona where its 104 outside,, ha) And that is for wide open output. It used to be traditional to wire off of old fuse panels with 10 on a 50 for those machines. I have seen lots of them in old garages. Art 630.11 I think has the tables for welder circuits.

[wendell]

Sberry,
thanks for the reply, I recognize that a breaker will limit current if the draw excedes the breakers rating. But since the breaker wasn't tripping, the machine's input current wasn't limited.

I plan on putting the 60A breaker back in ASAP because I've run the welder as hard as I ever will without tripping it yet. I'll also take a look at the size of the wire going to the plug. Thanks for everybodies input on this.

[kid]

One quick question, does the Dynasty (or any inverter) types use less amperage draw than earlier welders? (that was my impression) I am now confused. Wendal states that his 300 Dynasty can draw 100 amps. That is more than my older welder draws at WOT. Thanks in advance for a reply to clear my thinking.

[Justin00Stang]

If you look at the sync 250 user manual it says 6ga wire (not more than a 40ft run) and a 125amp fuse. I run 6ga wire and a 100amp breaker in mine. I have welded at 220amps AC for several minutes, and tested the unit at 300amps for a second or two.

[aphexafx]

Aphex,
big Aphex fan or is your name R.D. James? I've got a pretty good stack of Aphex vinyl. Thanks for the disertation on current and resistance. Like I said above, I'm an idiot and this shouldn't have gone as far as it did.

Right on, man! It would be sweet if we happened upon RDJ himself on a welding board of all places! I'm just a big RePhLeX junkie and I grew up listening to Polygon Window while my friends listened to their trendy grunge stuff, so I made this my handle and it's been that way ever since. Awesome to find another braindancer! Do you spin turntables at all?

You're definitely not an idiot, man. It seems to me like you actually understand it just fine reading along this thread, so I hope I didn't patronize you too much! Forgive me, my family comes to me with any and every electrical problem, or ~situation~, and I've had to break it down to the rubbing sticks thing in order to get them to understand. Don't you hate it when you don't think something through and then post it, and then have to endure everyone telling you why you're wrong, even though you just didn't think about it and you know...

Cheers!

[aphexafx]

One quick question, does the Dynasty (or any inverter) types use less amperage draw than earlier welders? (that was my impression) I am now confused. Wendal states that his 300 Dynasty can draw 100 amps. That is more than my older welder draws at WOT. Thanks in advance for a reply to clear my thinking.

kid, you are correct about inverter (or switching) welders being more efficient and generally drawing much less amperage for any given welding output as compared to a traditional (large transformer) welder.

wendell is actually talking about his Syncrowave 300 which is a traditional welder power source, not an inverter type, like the Dynasty series machines.

It is a very powerful machine, though...what do you do with it wendell??

[wendell]

kid,

I wish I had a Dymasty 300! Like aphex said the inverters draw less than my old syncrowave. While the syncrowave 300 states a 100A draw, I've run a bead or two at 300+A and never tripped the 60A breaker.

aphex,
I had been looking for a TIG for about 6 months before I found this one. Wanted to do it on the cheap and the sync300 was on Ebay for real short money and was only two hours away. From Ebay and friends in the business I was able to put the whole rig together for under $1000 including a Bernard chiller and 250A torch. I use it to fabricate steel and AL equipment for my family cranberry farm. I'm also in the market for a 67 Nova or a 68 Camaro that I'd like to full frame/ 3 link for road racing.

I used to play IDM a bit in Boston but now adays I only play in my living room when the weathers bad. Got a decent collection of early IDM (entire BOC discography, Basscadet 4x10 in colectors box...) but its just a hobby.

[jevs]

The only reason to go back to a 60 AMP breaker is if you do not have the proper size wire coming out of your box. Period. Some people that posted seem to think you have a 180 sync., but it looks to me like you have a 300. If you ever use it to capacity you will want the bigger breaker. It would be kinda silly to go down to a 60 AMP breaker and limit your machines capabilities. This is assuming you have the proper size output wire from your box to the machine.

[72boss]

Syncrowave 300

Wendell:

Jevs is right!

You should definitely use the 100 A circuit breaker for your 300. I am assuming that you are running a separate line to your welder. If you are not then it is a simple task to do so, using the 100 A breaker and the appropriate wire. Your 200 A service is more than adequate to handle your welder and other normal appliances.

You have done no damage to your welder, If you had overtaxed the 60 A breaker then it would have opened and stopped your welder.

You paid a very low price for a very good and capable welder. Take the time and spend a couple of hundred bucks if necessary to make it work to its full potential.

Your Miller service rep was correct and gave you good advice. He was probably assuming that you had read the manual and knew the proper wiring specifications.

After you have the welder running properly, be happy that you have a better welder than most and at a bargain price.