welding processes

[farmboy weldor]

i know tig is the hardest of all arc welding processes, but which is easier mig or stick welding in all positions, and which process mig or stick is most used in industrial situations, and for what reasons.two reasons i ask, one is because i have nearly tought myself everything i need to know on mig but stick is still an inconsistent process for me, and the other is that at boces the test is given out by DOT and they make you use stick welding units...

thanx

[wrench3047]

mig is easier from my experiences and what just about everyone else has said. stick you have to really pay attention to your arc length cause the stick gets shorter. It just takes pratice.

[Sberry]

They both have their place and one big reason they give that test in stick is to weed out the ones that think they know everything they need to know about MIG. This isnt to sound cruel,,, but if you have been teaching yourself you actually know almost nothing. You may be able to make some nice looking welds but thats not the end of it with feeders. It takes a while and some instruction to make that machine do all it can do and do it well to make welds that are reliably structurally sound. One thing about sticks,,, if it looks good it usually is,, with feeders it can still be an issue. I have been at this for 25 yrs and just now figuring out I know about 10% of it,,, ha

[HAWK]

farboy welder,

I must agree with Sberry. Most anybody can run a decent looking MIG bead with a little practice. If you really think you know the MIG process, then you should be able to run horizontal and overpositions with structural integrity consistent with that of a certified in position weld. You will mosty likely never know if this is the case since an all position MIG test is not easily available to you.

When I learned to weld I was told I must learn to stick weld first. Why? It is a much harder process. You have to be able to coordinate the amount of stick burnoff with the metal deposition rate and arc length. It sounds hard and is when you are learning. For a good stick welder it is second nature. You just do it. Also as Sberry said if a stick weld looks good, then it probably is good. HERE IS THE KICKER: OUT OF POSITION STICK WELDING IS REALLY EASIER TO LEARN THAN OUT OF POSITION MIG. Maybe that is some consolation??? Guess what? There are numberous rods on the market, but once you learn how the basic rods burn most others will burn similar to one of them.

[dyn88]

It may sound funny but in my opinion tig is the easiest process to use, mig second and stick is the hardest. Why you may ask, in tig you have manual control of all aspects of the process- puddle size, with a pedal or finger control, rod feed, with your hand, arc length and deposition rate. Lastly you can see the puddle and everything that may happen to it during welding(contamination, penetration). with mig you are at the mercy of the machine and the wire feeder and without extensive knowledge of voltage and amperage effects on the base and wire deposition, You have a good chance of over or in most cases under welding joints. Just because your beads look great, doesnt mean that you have the correct penetration or leg length as well as shape of bead. Be aware that most people can get by forever being good enough but very few are masters at mig process(I myself am far from a master). there is always something to learn about this industry no matter how long you have been doing it.

[farmboy weldor]

wow these posts are really helpful, its always good to learn something from older weldors, i didnt know that mig was that complicated, the reason i said i know almost everything about mig is beacuase i went to the miller booth and laid down a bead and everyone miller guy was impressed for what came from a 15 yr old kid, and stick welding method for out of position welding is very hard for me to learn on my own, so i was just wondering why dot uses stick for tests, they weld on 1 inch think in either vertical or overhead,

another question, which is more difficult vertical or overhead?

[HAWK]

Overehead is typically more difficult as your body is not in a natural position and the slag and spatter wiil fall all over you. Wear good protective clothing!!! You must also get your amperage set correctly to get sufficient penetration and prevent the puddle from rolling out of the weld bead. It is not as hard as it sounds. Once you put in the practice and do it enough it will be second nature. Enjoy learning and be patient. Stick welding is frustrating to learn.

[farmboy weldor]

thanx for the advice hawk

[hankj]

Today's exercise in the Gadget Garage is totally pertinent to this thread. I was repairing a fireplace grate, of all things. 3/4" square bar HR stock. Why would one do this vs. pitching the thing and buying a new one? Well, us rookies gotta learn somewhere!! I had three options - O/A, stick, MIG. Used all three. Cut out the boogered steel with the O/A. Tacked the replacement legs with the MIG. 30° angles (60° included) on all joints, 1/8" root face at the bottom.

Old Sears buzz-box and 7014 rod for the big welds. I don't have a lot of skill at striking an arc and holding it on small stock like 3/4, but by the end of the afternoon, I had improved. Unfortunately, I did so poorly on the first leg, I burned it off, cut a new piece, and started over. The welds actualy look pretty good. I'd share 'em if I was fortunate enough to hav one of those digital camers!

It all goes to Cary's point - "if you're teaching yourself, you know nothing".

But I'm learning???

Hank

[Sberry]

That remark I made may have seemed harsh but there was a point to it. While mig is not extremely complicated there are some issues that come upo with it that are not always apparent to the eye. An example, I was building a fuel tank from 1/4 material, it was in cold weather and the company I was working for had a weldor of SOME experience they wanted to work for a day and they had a hair up their rear so I put him on this tank and told him to tack it up. Before I can get back to him he welds it all up, the job looks fair but when we put diesel in it leaks like a seive. The work looked good. He certainly didnt listen when I told him to grind the tacks all up and warm it with a torch a bit before starting to weld. If I would have welded it there wouldnt have been a problem, likely would have taken 10 more mins, but it wouldnt have leaked because I am aware of the little cold laps that can occur especially on the starts. I saw some beads on a truck body the other day that had popped off, they were non critical, no big deal. Feeders can be fussy on setup adjustments and operator techniques to get proper fusion and its going to be worse with operators with less than ideal eyesight or ones that dont have a through understanding of what fusion looks like or even where the arc should be running in the joint. Sticks by nature take care of some of these issues most of the time although I have seen guys running lo-hi that didnt realize they were not melting both pieces together and get a rolled up bead. They just arent seeing it. People used to remark how I had my face right up in it sometimes especially on starts, probably a bad habit but was looking to get fusion right at the starts. Despite not having exceptional motor controls and hand eye coordination I have been blessed with good eyesight and an ability to understand and see fusion from almost day one, I know what it looks like when its happening. I dont do much heavy plate work and use only one wire feed process in my shop, short arc, as so much is out of position anyway but I dont have issues making good weldments even on heavier materials, some of it just due to following some basics clean well and preheat when its needed and keeping the arc running in front of the puddle. I am with Hawk here about of out of position work in the sense that the position isnt even a consideration when making a weld. Its so second nature I dont think about it and if I have to stick weld the one I actually enjoy the most is overhead. There is just something about making a nice flat faced bead in an overhead fillet with lo-hi that says it all.

[Sberry]

I tend to think about half of the reason for specifying certain processes for certain types of work is that it just weeds out a certain amount of the amateurs right off the bat. A guy with 3000$ tig machine is likely going to be more compentent and dilligent than Jethro in the backyard with the 125A mig and 100 ft of number 16 extension cord. I see some on other forums, automotive hobby types that swear up and down how they make roll cages for their buddys race car all the time with the 120V migs. Now,,, I know some guys that could do that,,, but I get the feeling that some of these have to be marginal at best, just the idea of telling the rest of the crowd what a good idea this is leaves a lot of room for suspect. There is a long thread on the Ford forum called "where did you learn to weld". A lot of them seem to feel because they been doing it they actually learned,,, reality,, 2 different things.

[cope]

I tend to think about half of the reason for specifying certain processes for certain types of work is that it just weeds out a certain amount of the amateurs right off the bat. A guy with 3000$ tig machine is likely going to be more compentent and dilligent than Jethro in the backyard with the 125A mig and 100 ft of number 16 extension cord. I see some on other forums, automotive hobby types that swear up and down how they make roll cages for their buddys race car all the time with the 120V migs. Now,,, I know some guys that could do that,,, but I get the feeling that some of these have to be marginal at best, just the idea of telling the rest of the crowd what a good idea this is leaves a lot of room for suspect. There is a long thread on the Ford forum called "where did you learn to weld". A lot of them seem to feel because they been doing it they actually learned,,, reality,, 2 different things.

Cary, there sure are a lot of 14-15 year old self-appointed experts at Hobart right now who not only don't listen to good advice but bad mouth the source.

[Sberry]

They dont bother me,,,, they have to learn somewhere and most of us went thru that. It sinks in and I am glad they are there. I hadnt really "studied" much about welding since college despite being in the business and when I got to these boards it was a rude awakening to find out just how much I didnt know. I was in construction and general repair so the need to be really technically knowledgeable was quite minimal for the most part. The main thing was the need to make the quality welds and often one didnt really need to know the "why". It was a world of 6010, 7018, innershield and short arc mig in repairs. Still the engineering and metalurgy eludes me for the most part but I have to admit,, it doesnt interest me all that much. Its still more about the fab and building for me than it is about the welding. I thought we were going to have a big power project her but it didnt go thru, I was considering going back to work if it was the case and I would have been likely to pick and choose. I probably would have done ******** or possibly rigging if I had the choice over something in the welding,,, although there likely wouldnt have been much easier than welding foreman,,, ha

[Sberry]

In their defense too, I have seen some of them come from these high school vocational programs,,, some didnt learn much,,, and then there were a couple that I seen make some dam fine welds, as nice as any of us. I am sure hey were limited but they were impressive to say the least. A couple had motor skills like a surgeon and a certain amount is just pure talent, but they knew how much, how fast, bead size, shape, etc. You wouldnt have known it didnt come out of a good welding shop from anywhere.

[arcdawg]

cary,

in regards to a few things that you had mentioned in this post

#1 120v migs and race car frames....well i was working at a race shop in the late spring early fall doing repairs on there FORMULA FORD CARS.... and it was all thin walled tubing so all we needed was the 120v mig it actually did a GREAT job..... plenty of penatration ! i was suprised though.......

#2 high school vocational classes.... thats how i got into welding. i had a old boss right after i got out of high school that showed me how to stick weld and i took a liking to welding so i signed up for a 36 hour class (stick) then i went and did a 1080 hour class....the first time in my life that i took school seriously.....

now i will agree with people that there are things missing in vo tec classes but they are a huge resourse and a asset to someone who wants to weld..... between metalurgy, saftey, some fab work, and just genral welding....i would HIGHLY RECOMEND THEM....

there are to many MISINFORMED *weldors* in this world

dawg