welding processes

[arcdawg]

one more thing..... i have seen guys that can lay the nicest beads while on a welding table but put them out of position and its CRAP !

DAWG

[INTP]

I started out as a self-taught MIG welder. I had a feeling that I might be missing something, so I took a class. I immediately realized that not only was I missing A LOT, I didn't even know what I didn't know. The pictures in the books did nothing for helping me evaluate a weld, but hands on experience with feedback from a qualified instructor helped tremendously.

I still find GMAW to the the easiest process to lay down a bead. But it's also the easiest to lay down a bead with no penetration, especially if you aren't seeing the puddle in the base material. In many ways, it's hardest to tell if you're doing it right.

Stick is more frustrating because it takes time to learn to hold everything right as the weld progresses, maintaining a good puddle, not sticking it, and of course, seeing through the smoke.

TIG takes a different kind of patience and coordination (torch, feed, and pedal), but it really seems the easiest to me to get a good weld. It's the easiest to me to see the puddle, and every time I do it, it seems that much easier to get it just right. As Cary said about stick, over time, you just adjust and don't have to think about every thing.

[hankj]

Cary,

I never considered the original statement to be too harsh. On the other hand, it's possible to make progress on the learning curve if you're fortunate to have a couple of very patient welding pros who will look at your work and tell you what's up. Had I not had the benefit of starting my new avocation with OAW, what you say about nice-looking, do-nothing GMAW beads is certainly true. But I believe that once you've seen fusion, seen penetration, and can get a clue from the appearance of the HAZ what you have just done to the base metal, it's possible to learn without the benefit of formal education, although I wish I had, and would still welcome, that opportunity - it would have made things a lot easier!!

It's all good, guys. Stay well.

Hank

[Sberry]

Its certainly possible to learn with the benifit of formal training. I do compare it somewhat however to learning to play guitar by ear though. There are some cases where there is just enough natural talent and that works but most of the time a guy learns a few songs and doesnt take the time to learn to read music. It doesnt always have to be classroom work but when someone is shown the right way and gets good habits right off the bat their quality of work keeps going up and the learning curve is quicker. Wrong techniques and lots of practice makes for poor improvement too. I have a guy that works for me,, did welding on his own and not too bad, but I show him whip and pause, he said, no one had ever demonstrated it. He actually did realitively fair on flats but he will never master vert and OH with those electrodes no matter how hard he works at it without learning it right. Same for filling gaps. Another Bud wanted to learn, I show him and he decides he is going to do it his own way,,, which will be fine,,, unless he ever needs to be able to do it right. His learning hit the wall, 20 yrs later he is no better than he was.

[farmboy weldor]

im sorry if i sound cocky to anyone of you guys, when i meant i knew almost everything about mig welding, i meant the method of mig welding at least in most positions, and as for stick welding...

one more thing..... i have seen guys that can lay the nicest beads while on a welding table but put them out of position and its CRAP !

DAWG

this sadly is what stage i am in right now, i plan on taking a vocational school program and continuing on to college for welding technology, i have comfortable with in position stick welding, but as for out of position i have never seen any weldor do it so i cannot learn, i can only read so much on my own to learn and i have reached my reading capacity with stick,

"Stick is more frustrating because it takes time to learn to hold everything right as the weld progresses, maintaining a good puddle, not sticking it, and of course, seeing through the smoke."
INTP

this is another moment where i might sound cocky again but i am that comfortable with stick, and i do think i know what good fusion looks like and penetration looks like but maybe i am incorrect

thanx for the help guy

[hankj]

Farmboy,

Nobody's poking anybody else here. It's just a good discussion. You gotta consider who all the players are. Guys whose livelihoood (and maybe their's and someone else's life) could depend on the integrity of a weld, and who have been in that position while welding, are certainly more informed than I, and I respect and learn from them. That does not exclude me from having an opinion, which is what this discussion is all about.

All in all, everybody benefits.

Hank

[arcdawg]

farmboy.... welding ISNT easy ..... and thanks to the discovery channel everyone thinks that they can go out and buy a quick change helmet and a mig and abe a SUPER WELDOR..... g.d. i hate that !

its just like guys who paint cars....sure anyone can go out and buy a compressor and spray gun and PAINT a car....but would you let that guy paint your car ?

see what i am getting at .....

the best way of becoming a good welder is to learn from a good weldor...be it a welding instructor or a good ole boy that has been welding for 50 years ......like cary

the one thing i CANNOT stress enough is SAFTEY .......not just your own .... if a job comes up and you feel that you dont have what it takes to do the job right....say no and pass on the job !

dawg

[dragharley]

MIG welding

OK, I read this thread with much interest, and have a question:
I am a beginner welder, have a 110v mig, and a tig. Can run a good
looking bead with the MIG, still practicing with the TIG. Drag race
Harleys with 4130 chr moly frames, so I will have to get good at TIG, however,
use MIG for lots of stuff (mild steel, hand railings, gates, trailer, etc.).

The point about a good looking bead not always being sound really struck
me, so here's my question:

About 5 mos ago, after getting to the point where I could run a decent
looking bead in position, I welded two pieces of 1/8 mild steel together
at a 90 deg angle, put the pieces in a vise, and cold bent the two pieces till
they were parallel. My weld didn't crack, break, or show any other outward
signs of failure, and the original pieces of steel were bent near the weld.

1. Does this mean that my MIG welds, in general, are sound and functional?

2. Also, how do you judge out of position mig welds by appearance, both
during and after welding?

3. When I MIG weld, I tend to move somewhat slow, and tend to deposit a
lot of filler, looking through the helmet, I can see the puddle, and I tend
to swirl my bead/arc/wire between the (90 deg) pieces of the joint, and can see
a whirlpool/vortex effect, and try to fill over this hole as I move, instead of
moving past it, is this correct?

Thanks for any and all advice!!!!

[thehat]

Arcdog,I agree that vo-tech can be a great resource but it depends on how well the instrutor connects with the students and how big the class is.My son started mig when he was about 8 and does very well but I could never connect with him on stick.I don't have any formal training but I was very lucky to study at the feet of a couple great oldtimers who took a liking tome and touhgt me alot.I signed him up at the local BOCES and he hit it off with the instructor and took right off with 5/32.There where about 22 students in that session and if I had'nt hung around and help he would have gone nuts'some of the guys I worked with thought I did a much better job teaching than he did-go figure.The biggest problem I see with new guys is they don't relize how much they DON'T know"Hey lok at me I'm a weldor"

[HAWK]

thehat,

I have made a literal fortune by redoing work where the original welder was a self certified " hey look I'm a welder". In 95% of these cases the original welds are GMAW or FCAW. Some of these welds looked good, but were textbook classic examples of poor fusion and cold lap.

Let me defend my position by saying I am not criticizing the GMAW process or the operators. Given the correct parameters a MIG weld can have better qualities than a similar stick weld: percent weld, penetration, fusion, base match due to intense and short time heat input, no slag inclusions, etc. It just seems like many of my competitors are self taught, process ignorant, wire welders. Yes there are some back yard stick welders with the 225 amp AC Lincoln buzz box mounted on a pine pallet in the pick up truck bed. It makes me wonder when the romex extension cord is longer than a foot ball field and coiled like a hoola hoop in the truck bed. I wish I had taken a picture of this guy. I have not seen him around lately. I guess word got around.

[JTMcC]

i know tig is the hardest of all arc welding

<snip>

processes, thanx

That's a blanket statement that doesn't apply to everybody.
I was happily making a living in TIG before i could make competent stick welds.

JTMcC.

[HAWK]

I learned to Stick weld first and was always fascinated with TIG. I still to this day think over head MIG is the toughest weld to make.

[arcdawg]

when i first got into welding i tought that i would NEVER be ale to tig weld... so i devoted a ton of time to get good at it.....and i can now call myself a good tig welder...but far from great

as far as the hardest type of welding i would have to say anything underwater

all joking aside i have a hard time with STICK welding out of postion.... where mig and tig its no problem !... go figure ?

thehat, good point ( i enjoyed reading your post )

dawg

[farmboy weldor]

i didnt mean the definite hardest of all processes but the hardest of the commom processes like mig stick and so on , i know some might disagree but tig is the hardest i can get my hands on,

now i know this might sound dumb but i am close to being one of those back yard weldors, with an ac 225 buzz box with a hundred foot cord but ive got to start somewhere and im only in highschool, buildin stuff on my dads farm, heck i built a truck bed for my brother and the guys at the auto shop think its great, and that was with a lincoln weld pak 100(flux cored) before i purchased a mm251.


thanx for any comments ,and opinions

[Sberry]

I could make a living with a buzz box if I had to,, ha