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MM135 tripping 20A breaker??

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  • Paul Seaman
    replied
    Sberry:
    Concise, accurate and informative. I'll stick to wrinkling paper for a living and welding for pleasure.
    Keep up the great work,

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  • Sberry
    replied
    Fun, this is a good example of what you think you know about it and what you actually know about it being 2 different things. Your vast experiences from pulling wire and pounding staples on a few houses definately qualifys you to contribute valuable insight to this conversation by advising to "consult with an electrician". I am also fairly certain you dont really have a clue what this thread is about.
    No where did I or anyone else ever state that a bigger wire wasnt better to power welding machines. What I did state was that the large wire was a contributing factor in tripping the breaker quickly in this scenerio. The solution was to do as Hank did and upsize the breaker and rely on the units internal thermal protection to protect the machine. Another point I was trying to make and it was mostly in theory was that a smaller wire can often be a current limiting factor in some instances especially due to sudden inrushes and spikes in current draw and that the theory that in resistive draws as voltage drops due to resistance current draw is also reduced. When the resistance in the wire is hi enough it doesnt follow the basic rule that V drop + increase in current draw. This is really noticable with undersize leads on welder secondary circuits.
    Now as for a 14 tripping 20A breakers. There are 4 basic ways a breaker trips. Basic overload such as too many devices on the wire. Sudden overload where current draw goes over the threshold for a lenght of time that the breaker delay can handle it such as a motor start. It is so sudden it doesnt overheat the wire, just trips the breaker. 3rd way is a short circuit and 4 th is a ground fault which may drwa hundreds or thousands of amps in an instant. A 14 wire will trip a 100A breaker easily on conditions 3 and 4, no one will dispute that. Thats why in the posts I carefully used the word overload when stating a 14 wire wasnt suitable to trip a 20. A good example of this condition may be a couple of electric heaters plugged in to an over breaker'd circuit. The wire may overheat and until it cooks the insulation and short circuits (which is too late) it may no trip the breaker. This however does not mean that 14 can never be used on 20A circuits, but these are dedicated circuits such as motor circuits where the load itself is calculated and limited by the device. A similar example is light fixtures where small wires are used. The load is limited by the lamp that can be installed and someone cant come along and keep plugging more devices on these small wires. This is only basic and there are some other factors that may come in to play as Hank and Rick pointed out. Now the way I word this may be less than ideal but I doubt you are going to find much dispute from anyone as to the "general point" of all of this.

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  • Sberry
    replied
    15 wont properly trip a 20 a breaker under overload without overheating the wire which is what makes it dangerous. On a general use circuit the NEC prohibits its use with a 20A breaker.

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  • ASKANDY
    replied
    I'll take the stupid award today.....wasn't following it close enough I guess

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  • fun4now
    replied
    bigger is better

    bigger is better only drawback is its heavy.i got tired of trying to explain this as every time i did i got a foolish replie that a 14 gage wire couldnt trip a 20 amp breaker so i gave up and advised that that person talk to a licanced electrition they trust rather than argue. the end result is that
    BIGGER IS BETTER!!!!

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  • fun4now
    replied
    joke

    some just insist on being rong and the rest of us are joking at there sugjestion.

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  • ASKANDY
    replied
    I thought we sain bigger was better. 14 & 16 are smaller. ???????

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  • MigIt
    replied
    For the record. 14 guage wire is only supposed to be used for lighting circuits.

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  • fun4now
    replied
    LOL

    you got it doc.but i think you may have been the only one

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  • glockdoc
    replied
    Got it. Think I will rewire my oven using 14ga wire and when I'm done with that i am going to HD and stock up on 100' 16ga extension cords to run my 15A grinders off of. Those 10ga cords are expensive and heavy, should make good ebay fodder.

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  • Justin00Stang
    replied
    my lincoln 135 would always blow the breaker when I exceeded the duty cycle.

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  • ASKANDY
    replied
    Are we forgetting we are talking welders here??

    If we use a small cord and it produces a voltage drop CAUSING poor weld, aren't WE going to turn up the welder to get more power??? Therefore we WILL draw more power from the wall AND heat up the cord. A big cord will deliver the required amps at the proper setting and prevent us from having to jack the machine way up. This way (hopefully) we will stay within our power draw requirement. The light bulb example is correct to a point....you have no way of trying to turn it up to get it brighter hence YES the watts will be less.

    A-

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  • Sberry
    replied
    Good explanation Hank. Yes, John, it does make flow easier allowing the machine to do more work.

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  • hankj
    replied
    My final-final:

    JWELD,

    The smaller cord acts just like a gate valve in a water line - it restricts the amount of flow. If the cord's too small to allow 20A to flow, the 20A breaker can't trip, same as the if the pipe is big enought to handle 300GPM, but the valve is half closed, you won't get the 350GPM - the resistance of the half-closed valve holds back the water.

    In this case, like Cary said earlier, the resistance shows up as heat in the small cord, which is the bad part.

    I have solved the problem by using a pigtail from my 30A planer recep., and all is well.

    Thanks, everyone. Seems like everybody is saying the same thing, just differently!!

    Be well.

    hank

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  • JOHN1
    replied
    SBERRY

    Now I am really confused. I thought the amount of amperage drawn is by the source, not the wire. the larger the wire only made it flow easier/safer. Please help.

    John1 (AKA JWELD)

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