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MM135 tripping 20A breaker??

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  • #16
    Hank, you are correct about having to up the current to get the same power when the voltage drops,,, but, higher voltage mean more current essentially. If the cord is bigger it will deliver more power due to less voltage drop. When there is smaller wire and hence more V drop, there is also less current flow. A larger wire assists the breaker to trip easier. For example, take a number 16 cord and load heavily, overload, not talking about short circuit but just overload, its a 10A wire, hook it to a heater that draws 25 amps, it will overheat the cord and have great V drop but not trip a 20A breaker, hook same device to a 12 wire and snap, trips the breaker. The relationship of V drop to current is only true with a given amount of watts. I dont know if I made sense here or not. Ok, what I am tryin to say, is that a bigger wire will deliver 20 A more easily than a smaller wire, hence tripping a breaker faster than a smaller wire due to less V drop. Its late, I am babbling.

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    • #17
      wats remain

      the wats will always remain the same in any givin circuit.therfor a bigger cord will not cause a breaker to drop becaus you can get more through it.
      a beraker trips due to amp's
      amps = heat = causing the bimatalic strip to bend causing the circuit braker to trip.

      rarger cord means les resitance alowing the curent to flow without any drop drop is bad this is why.

      10Volts X 10Amp's =100wats

      with a small cord the resistance will drop the voltage at the using machine. that machiene will still draw 100wats but at a much hier amprage.

      small cord same machine same watage
      volts drop because of small cord

      7volts X 14.28amp's = 100wats

      and your 10amp breaker trips because you are now pulling 14+ amps that why you burn up an electric weed eater on too long of a cord the weedeater will still get its 100 wats any way it can so it gets less volts and runs slower (volts =speed)and it gets more amprage (amp's = heat)and soon it melts the windings on its motor and you get stinky smoke and a broke weed eater.


      THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS THAT

      BIGGER IS BETTER !!!! BUT HARD TO CARRY .


      WELL I HOPE YOU ALL INJOYED YOUR LESSEN IN BAISIC WIRING 101

      I HOPE THIS HELPS CLEAR UP THAT PART OF THE PICTURE.
      thanks for the help
      ......or..........
      hope i helped
      sigpic
      feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
      summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
      JAMES

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      • #18
        Delivered current doesnt really go up with voltage drop, drop the voltage the wattage is less, thats why you use a bigger wire, to be able to deliver the wattage without the drop. Does it really get the 100 watts does it if the wire is too small?

        10Volts X 10Amp's =100watts
        7volts X 14.28amp's = 100wats
        Yes, those numbers are eqeul, but in a real tool use delivered wattage with a tool like a saw or welding machine would be different. I put a 10 wire on my chop saw, it will pull up to 45A, put a 12 on it and it tops at a bit over 30 It will draw both higher amperage amps at higher volts. I worded that wrong, at equel current draws, the 10 wire will be at higher voltage and delivering more watts. Then it will allow some more load to be applied which would in turn trip a breaker faster. It isnt all the same,,, the wattage draw is different,, a larger wire trips breakers faster, it allows more load quicker.

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        • #19
          Here is another way to look at this,, 14 wire 15A breaker, 12 wire for a 20. A 14 wire wont deliver the amps to trip a 20 despite the greater voltage drop.

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          • #20
            not true

            a 14gage wire will deliver the amprige to pop a 20A breaker you realy need to talk to an electition you trust . i have 3 years training in housing electric (install and repair).
            thanks for the help
            ......or..........
            hope i helped
            sigpic
            feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
            summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
            JAMES

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            • #21
              HankJ

              Just recently got my MM 135 but use to run my "red" 120 unit with a 10 gauge 50' extension cord.

              Would trip the breaker only if I hit the work with the tip, I guess drawing more amps! Other than that it was great.

              John1 (AKA you know who)

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              • #22
                Re: wats remain

                Originally posted by fun4now
                the watts will always remain the same in any givin circuit.therfor a bigger cord will not cause a breaker to drop becaus you can get more through it.
                Two situations

                Case 1. The load is like a light bulb or something purely resistive. You add the resistance of the extension cord. Current goes down, total power goes down, the light bulb gets dimmer and the cord heats up.

                Case 2 The load requires a fixed amount of power and self regulates. (some motors, power supplies) You add the resistance of the extension cord and total power goes up and current goes up. This is because the device requires V*I at the load to be constant and V is now lower.

                Which one does a welder fit into????? Don't know

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                • #23
                  Thank you rick,, it fits into the first one. fun4,,, yes it will trip a 20, it will trip a hundred. But they dont allow it because during a plain overload it will heat the wire, like if you put 2 many electric heaters on it. As rick pointed out, the current will actually go down and not draw enough to trip the breaker before the wire overheats to the point of insulation failure, then likely it will trip due to short circuit.

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                  • #24
                    I ain't gonna stir up no more stuff. This is it:

                    Mr. Ohm figured this stuff out long ago, and wrote it down. It still works. P(Watts) = E (volts) x I(Amperes) is a given. E = I x R (Resistance) is also a given. Where the stuff hits the fan is just what constitutes R? In Direct Current theory, it's pure resistance. In Alternating Current theory, resitance is called impedance, which is the total opposition to current flow. It is composed of the pure resistance part, and "reactance", which is how the electron flow is modified by any capacitive or inductive influence in the cicuit.

                    That being said, I'm still gonna go with the "bigger is better" theory on cords.

                    Be well, everyone.

                    hank
                    ...from the Gadget Garage
                    Millermatic 210 w/3035, BWE
                    Handler 210 w/DP3035
                    TA185TSW
                    Victor O/A "J" series, SuperRange

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I agree bigger is better on cords, you will get no argument there. The original thread was on breaker tripping. To reduce tripping on some devices you can use a smaller cord, that was my original statement. Motor startups like chopsaws is a case. A bigger cord is better as it allows more run power, but to reduce nussiance tripping you can add a cord. But,, a bigger cord allows more current, which allows more load to be applied which is what is tripping the breaker. The best option is obviously to up the breaker size which I think is what he did.

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                      • #26
                        i give up

                        call an electrition you know and trust.
                        thanks for the help
                        ......or..........
                        hope i helped
                        sigpic
                        feel free to shoot me an e-mail direct i have time to chat. [email protected]
                        summer is here, plant a tree. if you don't have space or time to plant one sponsor some one else to plant one for you. a tree is an investment in our planet, help it out.
                        JAMES

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          SBERRY

                          Now I am really confused. I thought the amount of amperage drawn is by the source, not the wire. the larger the wire only made it flow easier/safer. Please help.

                          John1 (AKA JWELD)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            My final-final:

                            JWELD,

                            The smaller cord acts just like a gate valve in a water line - it restricts the amount of flow. If the cord's too small to allow 20A to flow, the 20A breaker can't trip, same as the if the pipe is big enought to handle 300GPM, but the valve is half closed, you won't get the 350GPM - the resistance of the half-closed valve holds back the water.

                            In this case, like Cary said earlier, the resistance shows up as heat in the small cord, which is the bad part.

                            I have solved the problem by using a pigtail from my 30A planer recep., and all is well.

                            Thanks, everyone. Seems like everybody is saying the same thing, just differently!!

                            Be well.

                            hank
                            ...from the Gadget Garage
                            Millermatic 210 w/3035, BWE
                            Handler 210 w/DP3035
                            TA185TSW
                            Victor O/A "J" series, SuperRange

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Good explanation Hank. Yes, John, it does make flow easier allowing the machine to do more work.

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                              • #30
                                Are we forgetting we are talking welders here??

                                If we use a small cord and it produces a voltage drop CAUSING poor weld, aren't WE going to turn up the welder to get more power??? Therefore we WILL draw more power from the wall AND heat up the cord. A big cord will deliver the required amps at the proper setting and prevent us from having to jack the machine way up. This way (hopefully) we will stay within our power draw requirement. The light bulb example is correct to a point....you have no way of trying to turn it up to get it brighter hence YES the watts will be less.

                                A-

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