MIG Wire

[HAWK]

Originally posted by klsm54
Hawk,


"Variable inductance or tapped slope machine"....If someone woulk make an old Linde 450 SVI machine again, I could sell a truckload of them. I have a very large S/S customer, that makes cookers for the food, drug and cosmetic industry, that still buys these old behemoths when they find them at auctions. I have had Blue, Yellow and Red showcasing their best alternatives to them, but NOTHING will please them like an old green SVI machine for stainless mig welding...

Variable inductance is nice, but not the same at slope. I welded with a CP252TS that came out of Hendrick's a few years ago. I put a very fancy latest and greatest TA wire feeder on it (don't remember the model). I used the Ferromax plus gas from Airgas before they canned that line. No pun. That was the best welding GMAW powersource I have used in a long time. It was killer on short arc and the finished beads looked like uphill GTAW. The spray was fantastic. You could blow a .250"x6" coupon in a very few seconds with cherry penetration to the back side just as soon as you pulled back on the stick out and went into into spray. The arc was so hot and clean. I can't describe it. If you have NOT welded with a TS252 3 phase machine, you are missing out. That had something to do with the gas, but I used this machine for several weeks on 92ar/8co2 before the Ferromax gas. The TS is great. I used to weld with a variable slope machine. It was a Miller. Model #??? Been too long! That was a killer machine!!! THe XMTs and other newer HOT ROD boxes are great too, but no comparison to arc quality on those golden oldies. Apples and oranges: slope versus inductance. It all depends on what type machine you are used to using.

On the down hill side the old VS and TS critters draw tons of power, seem to weigh tons, and take up tons of space. ...now the uphill. the newer variable inductance inverters deliver the capability to control the arc in nearly every way. They are small and light, pack lots amps of per pound, 1 and 3 phase autoline on many of the Millers, capable of pulse via accessories (60M or Optima).

[klsm54]

Originally posted by HAWK
klsm54,

So far I am only getting wide craters with black corrosion. The craters are deep. I am sure this is from the carbon dioxide gas content.

Exactly what I have always been taught, would happen if you used a gas with CO2 in it to weld aluminum.

Sounds like you have got their gas usage figured out.

[HAWK]

klsm54,

So far I am only getting wide craters with black corrosion. The craters are deep. I am sure this is from the carbon dioxide gas content. I drove by this facility and looked it over the best I could, but was not invited into the welding areas. They have a large argon tower and a number of 300CF helium bottles running to a mixing station. The plant manager told me they were using 25% argon and 75% helium mixed at the plant. He also told me they use a tri-mix in a brown bottle with an orange splotch marking. That's like the sample bottle I have. I saw some stainless tubing in the corner outside the building for a boat tower. I bet they are migging it with this gas. So far I have only proven my original thoughts: It won't work!

[klsm54]

Hawk,

It sounds like your dealer might have either gotten confused, or was given some bad information. I, like you, wondered how that mix would work with the CO2 in it. Trust me, it doesn't take much contamination in a cylinder of Argon to show up on an aluminum tig weld. (Experience speaking.. )

"Variable inductance or tapped slope machine"....If someone woulk make an old Linde 450 SVI machine again, I could sell a truckload of them. I have a very large S/S customer, that makes cookers for the food, drug and cosmetic industry, that still buys these old behemoths when they find them at auctions. I have had Blue, Yellow and Red showcasing their best alternatives to them, but NOTHING will please them like an old green SVI machine for stainless mig welding...

[HAWK]

Originally posted by klsm54
I will be anxious to see how that mix works as a Tig gas HAWK. I have some S/S mig customers that use it, for mig, but have never seen it tried on tig. But, as you say, one can never know, unless........

klsm54,

I don't understand why it would be used at a shielding gas for GTAW due to the reactive gas content (CO2).A little whine and the whole thing starts: I asked a local dealer, one I deal with regulary, to check my D200DX on a loadbank and scope. I felt like it was performing poorly. I brought the machine in and the service department insisted it was operator error and or improper shielding gas. Long story short: The machine was sick: Miller took care of all under warranty. The little Dynasty is actually better than new!

After I received the newly repaired Dynasty the dealer insisted I try the tri-mix that a local marine dealer uses with the Syncrowave 250 for anodized aluminum. He only had a 100 or so machines. It is a small operation in newly constructed 100,000 square foot building I have an 80CF bottle and ran a few short test early this morning. So far I am not getting anything that resembles a bead. I have tried 3003, 6061T-6511, and a few other base alloys. For fillers I tested 1100, 4043, 5356, and 4047.
The only thing I can figure is I don't know the trick or it simply does not work. I can always hook it to my 12RC and ALT to short arc stainless. I like to spray ss with 98ar/2o2. I even like for short arc with a variable inductance or tapped slope machine (what's that? where did they go?)

The anodized I ran today worked well with argon, 285PPS with a 50% peak amperage time and the background set at 40%. The 300DX was set at 300 amps, but the pedal was no where near that. The material was .125" x .750" anodized aluminum angle. All it took was scratching with a scribe and striking the arc. I also did without removing the anodized coating to start the arc, but starts were hard and somewhat erratic.

I will try a few more things Monday to see if the gas can be used for TIG. The dealer info may be wrong-not intentionally of course.

[klsm54]

I will be anxious to see how that mix works as a Tig gas HAWK. I have some S/S mig customers that use it, for mig, but have never seen it tried on tig. But, as you say, one can never know, unless........

[HAWK]

pj,

It is a stainless mix: 90he/7.5ar/2.5co2. I do not understand the co2 content however small it may be, but will be starting a client's job in about an hour and will use this gas unless a quick test disappoints me. I'll let you know.

The copper coat has its place as well as bare wire. I live in a heavy air humidity hanging enviroment. Yesterday I walked to the truck and had to sit on towels. In a 100 yards I was literally sopped with clothes stuck to me from the humidity. The bare wire in 44lbs only last me 2-3 days so it smokes up quick.

[Paul Seaman]

Hawk:
I've used bare wire and it does finish nice but with mine not being in a production environment I decided to go copper covered for the corrosion resistance. My Airgas guys educated me on the pluses and minuses before I decided and it has done real well for me so far.

I've heard of Tri-mix on SS but usually not for AL, let me know how it goes, I thought of doing some SS counters and the cost of the gas change over is prohibitative for me right now. I was given a 5 # spool of SS inershield that can run on 75/25 but havent tried it yet either. Too many projects, storm damage, and the truck's being difficult, Not a spare minute for fun, except for late evening here!

Peace,

[HAWK]

Originally posted by klsm54
I have some customers that will use nothing but "Bare" wire, and others that will use nothing but "Copper Coated" wire.


You guys that count your own beans usually use what does the best job, those who have corporate bean counters often have to use what will do the job properly, yet also the most economicaly....

"If it ain't broke, why try to fix it?"

klsm54,

I agree with you. I just don't like the copper coating and the look of the finished weld. I also don't like the way the wire lays down. It's my personal preference. You are correct that I am not right or wrong. I think bare wire does a better job and that's why I use it.

It is the same reason I use the machines I do: To me the most important factor is doing the best job I can do for my clients. I don't care if a feeder or a machine crashes years too soon, pay big dollars for a specialty item if it does a better job, wear out 100x the consumables over the next shop as long as I get the best results possible.

If I find a better way , chances are good I follow it. My customers are first over all else. Right now I am testing an unheard of tri-mix shielding for GTAW and anodized aluminum without pulse welding. Do I think it will work better than pulsing with helium? No. However, I'll give it a try. If you don't try, you won't know.

I hope all copper coated wire users will try bare wire and vice versa. We both may learn something: about consumables and ourselves.

[cope]

I inherited an old spool of .035 wire with my machine. I had used it off and on for several years for small projects and practice work. I was going to build 50' of fence last spring so I bought a new roll. The difference was like night and day! tEven though I ran a wipe pad on the old wire it was still slightly corroded or contaminated I guess.

[klsm54]

This is like "Coke" or "Pepsi" thing. Nobody is right or wrong, it is whatever works for you. I have some customers that will use nothing but "Bare" wire, and others that will use nothing but "Copper Coated" wire.

Hawk, I didn't mean that there was a problem with contact tips, so to speak, just considerablty less life. It is the nature of the beast, bare wire, to abrade the copper contact tip more. How much faster do they wear? I don't know, maybe 15 to 20 percent, just a guess, which would not be a factor in a shop that used even 20 tips a week. But when you look at large production facilities that buy hundreds of tips each week, it can be enough difference to make them use the coated wire. Contact tips are cheap, but down time for a whole factory full of welders is not.

You guys that count your own beans usually use what does the best job, those who have corporate bean counters often have to use what will do the job properly, yet also the most economicaly....

Often times, in my experience, it is the quality and set up of the original wire that was presented that makes the choice. In other words, if when the shop was set-up if a good tech guy set it up properly with one wire, and the enduser had good success with that wire, it will be hard to convince him otherwise. As the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke, why try to fix it?"

[cope]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HAWK
[B]

Originally posted by klsm54
Bare wire is considerably harder on contact tips than copper coated wire, maybe not a concern to the shop who runs a roll or two of wire a week, but to those who run pallets and buy contact tips by the hundreds, it makes a difference. And of course there is the added rust prevention.

klsm54,

The shop where I spent much time in years past and still have a good competitive working relationship going with smoked a couple dozen 44 pounders a week. We burned lots of .035" wire. I must say that is not much wire compared to pallets a week, but that's a good bit for 2 or 3 guys depending on the time of year. We ran the little felt cleaners on all our feeders. I honestly can't say we ever experienced any problems with contact tips, drive rolls, feeders, etc. I can say our work was the best in town and our welds had a much nicer overall appearance as well. None of us ever took a liking to copper coated wire for one reason or another. We did some short term testing and found that the bare wire welds did not exhibit the occaional dark spots the copper coated wire welds did.

The copper coated wire may be easier on machines as well as the manufacturing process, but I would not give a "plug nickel" for it. That was also the deciding factor in purchasing the 12RC rather than the 8RC for mobile work. The bare wire is not available in the smaller spools.

Everyone has to go with what works for them, but in a hobbyist's garage or a small shop where the welder isn't turned on everyday the bare wire may give more problems due to rust, especially in the humid Gulf Coast region.

[HAWK]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by klsm54
[B] Bare wire is considerably harder on contact tips than copper coated wire, maybe not a concern to the shop who runs a roll or two of wire a week, but to those who run pallets and buy contact tips by the hundreds, it makes a difference. And of course there is the added rust prevention.

klsm54,

The shop where I spent much time in years past and still have a good competitive working relationship going with smoked a couple dozen 44 pounders a week. We burned lots of .035" wire. I must say that is not much wire compared to pallets a week, but that's a good bit for 2 or 3 guys depending on the time of year. We ran the little felt cleaners on all our feeders. I honestly can't say we ever experienced any problems with contact tips, drive rolls, feeders, etc. I can say our work was the best in town and our welds had a much nicer overall appearance as well. None of us ever took a liking to copper coated wire for one reason or another. We did some short term testing and found that the bare wire welds did not exhibit the occaional dark spots the copper coated wire welds did.

The copper coated wire may be easier on machines as well as the manufacturing process, but I would not give a "plug nickel" for it. That was also the deciding factor in purchasing the 12RC rather than the 8RC for mobile work. The bare wire is not available in the smaller spools.

[Paul Seaman]

klsm54 and hankj:
I found flakes like that in the bottom of the machine a few monthes ago and thought it was a fluke. Since then the first birdsnest in over a year of use of my mm210 tightened the wire tension and no more problems, and haven't seen any copper flakes. I didn't even know this was possible, but you described it perfectly.

Thanks much,

[klsm54]

Copper has a natural "Lubricity" , (real word ,honest)to it, which does improve the drawing process somewhat. It also improves the feeding process considerably, and adds conductivity to the wire. Bare wire is considerably harder on contact tips than copper coated wire, maybe not a concern to the shop who runs a roll or two of wire a week, but to those who run pallets and buy contact tips by the hundreds, it makes a difference. And of course there is the added rust prevention.

On the down side, copper can cause problems when the coating is poor, or the drive rolls are adjusted improperly, and the copper begins to flake off, clogging the liner. I suppose there is a metalurgical difference, but it must be minute, as the bare and copper coated wires meet the same AWS specifications.