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  • #16
    Actual Data

    Andy
    I know that you are a smart and honest fella... could you forward this to the engine drive guys so that they could get the Engine manufacturing reps to slug it out with some actual facts.. about this here on the forum????

    stories are fun... but I earn my living with this machine... SOOOO!!!

    Would sure like to see some actual data on relaibility of each one of these engines... know that many have heard stories or had experiences.. but how about we get the real skinny... know that the Miller Engine drive guys know what is actually happening... maybe they would be willing to share???? and while the Kohler reputation is well deserved and well known... the Robin advertising says that they will last longer than a Honda.... can post the ads if need be...BUT the rep seems overwhelmingly bad....
    Would it not be nice if we heard the good and the bad about both????
    Having bought the Onan/Robin.... sounds like I have bought a time bomb..from the stories that I have heard...... IF there are are factory guys to represent the ONAN/ROBIN side... think it is time for them to step up to the plate... and tell us what they think
    got mine and it runs sweet... take care of it like nobody's business
    but would like to hear about weak/strong points from their "Factory Guys" Know that Miller can scare them up...
    Well????
    Heiti

    BTW do know that I spent a half an hour searching the ONAN/Cummins/robin site for an email contact... so that I could talk to a human being... AND that there are none..... makes me very worried.... Kohler has contact info.... and their manuals are online as pdfs for FREE as Miller does.. But Onan sells them to you thru some hocus pocus.... are these guys americans???? maybe I bought the wrong motor on my welder????
    .

    *******************************************
    The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

    “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

    Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

    My Blue Stuff:
    Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
    Dynasty 200DX
    Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
    Millermatic 200

    TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

    Comment


    • #17
      If one can afford it, is the diesel that far superior???

      Comment


      • #18
        [email protected]
        I have an older TB/250 with a 20 hp onan and a ranger 8 with a 16/hp onan.both are fine machines and have never gave me any trouble.i own a cub cadet tractor with a18 hp/kohler also,in comparing the onan verses kohler ide say the kohler seems to be more cold blooded than the onan,but all have preformed well for me.(knock on wood).i to have heard the rumors about onan but have also had freinds that spent time in the service (vietnam) that said they had onan generators that ran 24/7 and never shut down....add fuel and oil while running.sooo again i think it might be like ford vers.chevy type of thing.we all would like to drive the best but look to our wallets then drive with we can afford...so theres my story and im sticking to it.(kidding)...just another point of view.

        welder99.
        ps, i feel preventive maintenance is a key factor.keep the oil and filters changed.
        Trailblazer 250G
        Bobcat 225
        Miller 150 STL
        Lincoln SA-200
        Miller XMT 304
        Lincoln Squarewave 355
        Lincoln 140C
        Lincoln 170T
        Miller S-22A feeder
        Miller 30A Spoolgun
        Miller XR-15
        Lincoln LN-25's
        Hypetherm 380
        Trailblazer 302
        Spectrum 875
        Just to mention a few

        Comment


        • #19
          Kohler vs Onan

          FWIW

          I have been repairing/rebuilding small engines for about 45 years. I personally prefer Kohler over Onan. For the sake of discussion lets say that Onan and Kohler are equal in quality. My choice would still be Kohler for pure economic reasons.

          My Bobcat was powered by an Onan. One rod had failed when I got it. Trying to find parts was a monumental problem. When I did find a source I aborted the rebuild when I racked up $700 in parts and hadn't come to the end. I found a preowned 25 HP Command Kohler for a replacement.

          As was stated in an earlier post, "Onans ran 24/7". It is also my experience that thay seem to have added longevity under continuous running conditions PROVIDED proper oil level and cleanliness is maintained. While this is true for any engine it seems to be the hard and fast rule for Onans.

          The Onans that I have seen go tango uniform appear to have failed as a result of lubrication problems. In addition to other failed parts, generally failed rods, the rear bearings appear to be galled as if from lack of lube on start. In addition to what I have said about oil quantity and quality it is my opinion that a pre-lube system would prolong the life of Onans.

          I have five pieces of equipment powered by Kohlers. Some close to thirty years old (cast iron K models). Kohler is my choice, again, because they are hardy survivors in harsh environments like that found in the welding industry. Onans should maintain their prominence in the RV industry where they do seem to excel.

          As for my choice of oil, I use oil rated for diesel engines. My second choice would be Harley oil. They both thrive in a harsh, high temp environment.Works for me.

          Sorry about the length of this post. Long, but I do hope I have contributed some worthwhile info.

          PS: I have four Onans in pieces on the shelf. Keeping them in case someone needs parts.

          moe1942

          Comment


          • #20
            See...I knew this would go on for awhile

            Anyway, I would like to get some of our engine folks to chime in for a bit of service experience and reliability answers.

            Check back in a few.

            Andy

            Comment


            • #21
              Turned out to be a good topic!And its good to hear from people so the companies can see what people are saying.I also think they should take it serious because people listen to people before buying.Thus as I see it.Let the better product win ,thats what keeps the advances in tech flowing so we can have better products!!Maybe thats why Miller has the option of these two motors.Just like Miller stays ahead of Lincoln

              Comment


              • #22
                JWELD.
                If you can afford it the diesel is far better than either gas engine.
                Wayne.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Apples and Apples

                  Guys
                  just so we are on the same page on these engines given how fluid name brands seem to be these days... The 20.5hp Onan engine as supplied on the TrailBlazer 301G is a Robin/Subaru engine and made in Hudson, Wis... and is not related in design or manufacture to previous Onan engines like the opposed twin that was common on earlier Bobcats.. these and other Onan engines had been designed and manufactured by Onan in Huntsville, Ala. up until 1997 when the plant was shut down and all of the tooling sent to Canada to a company named Linamar that has been building them ever since.... all that being said ... any experience one may have had with earlier models "LABELED" as Onan has no bearing on the present discussion on Onan vs Kohler as they apply to the Trailblazer 301G... the "ONAN/Cummins/Robin" engine on the Trailblazer is the Performer 220OHV which as far as I can tell is identical to the Robin model EH-64 ..... and to further confuse the issue is also marketed as a Wisconsin/Robin engine... here is a link to the Wisconsin/Robin site..

                  http://www.wiproducts.com/robinfuji/robin.html

                  The lineage of this engine is from engines marketed as "Wisconsin" by Teledyne since about 1971 ..... so we might better look at the reliability of the "Wisconsin/Teledyne/Robin" engines to get a better idea of the pedigree of the present 20.5 "Onan" .... as the same guys designed and built it.....
                  ARE YOU GUYS CONFUSED YET???? ME TOO!!!!!
                  I just wanted to try and make sure that we are talking about Apples and Apples ... and that we leave the Oranges out of it.... know that this is somewhat convoluted but about the best I can do until the engine reps come on the scene....
                  here is a link to the Robin brochure for it...

                  http://www.wiproducts.com/share/pdfs/eh65lit.pdf

                  The info that I have given here is the best that I can figure out from my research thus far... and would sure appreciate correction if any of it is off base....
                  this sure has become quite the topic!!!!

                  Thanks
                  Heiti
                  .

                  *******************************************
                  The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                  “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                  Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                  My Blue Stuff:
                  Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                  Dynasty 200DX
                  Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                  Millermatic 200

                  TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Onan??

                    Heiti,

                    My comments were based on Onan experience, the old twin cylinder opposed design.

                    Thanks to your tenacity and research we will have to back up and regroup. The engine, Robins/Suburu flavor, you say is on the Trailblazer looks like a Kohler. Also, considering its lineage it may be equally as good.

                    I am looking forward to see what the seller of this product has to say.

                    Hoping to get older and wiser,

                    moe1942

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Moe
                      what a tangled web... with all of the "Badge" engineering going on these days.. is tough to get to the bottom of it... I was wondering if anyone out there was aware of a study done by the military, govt agency, or private organization.. that may have tested these engines to figure out MTBF (mean time before failure) and what the failure modes were????... know that the military does this type of testing all the time to determine suitability in the field... if anyone know or hears of such a thing please post....
                      Also know that the engine manufacturers do that type of testing... wonder if they are gutsy enough... or proud enough of the results to share those results with us....
                      Would think that the Robin marketing people might take note of the practice by Miller and Kohler (and many others) of publishing manuals in pdf format free of charge on the web... it is an excellent practice... and think they may find the goodwill generated would far outweigh whatever paltry amount they might earn by selling them... if one needs a manual.. it usually means that they have already bought the engine.. why not make it easier to service them by making manuals more accessable???
                      Thanks
                      Heiti
                      .

                      *******************************************
                      The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                      “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                      Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                      My Blue Stuff:
                      Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                      Dynasty 200DX
                      Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                      Millermatic 200

                      TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        QUALITY.........

                        Guys
                        from my experience with the excellent overall quality of Miller equipment over the years... my guess is that the Engine drive guys have the Life Cycle, MTBF, and failure mode info for both brands of engine as provided by the manufacturers...and that they are probably very similar... I would have a tough time believing that an engineering team leader would be suicidal enough to spec junk on a product that he helped design... but if the engine drive guys are unable to share that info with us... it may be because of nondisclosure agreements etc... hope they can... if not maybe they can persuade the manufacturers to provide it...
                        thanks
                        Heiti
                        .

                        *******************************************
                        The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                        “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                        Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                        My Blue Stuff:
                        Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                        Dynasty 200DX
                        Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                        Millermatic 200

                        TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Failure data

                          Heiti,

                          You can bet the Miller people have the data. The bottom line may drive things but if ones reputation is tubed in the process the bottom line is in jeopardy.

                          I think it may be time for the Miller people to chime in. However; in lieu of any credible data I would stick with Kohler power.


                          moe1942

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            As I've posted before my Dad replaced three Onan 20hp in his tractor. The common problem with his was main bearing failure. My Dad and the local small engine guys say that after sitting for a while all the lube drained down, and at startup the oil pump doesn't get oil there quick enough. If left for a week or more then started it cuts 100hrs off the life of the engine. Also as someone else stated the oil low danger level is higher than the sensor to shut it down. If the machine is used regularly with the oil clean and full there should be no problems with the engine. In otherwords if it's for hobby use don't get the Onan engine. Also I fully recommend the Kubota diesel. I've seen it in tractors that have never had an engine problem. Plus the Army is starting to use them inplace of the small diesels. The new track recovery vehicle (Hercules) uses it to run the APU auxillary power unit(runs massive hydraulics and DC battery power if the main engine(V12 air cooled)won't start or is impractical).
                            Joe
                            [email protected]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Guys
                              finally found a viable email for Robin... albeit not exactly the proper one but got a response and some interesting info on future warranty work on these engines .. figured that I would share it...
                              thanks
                              Heiti

                              Dear Heiti,

                              Thank you for your comments about your Robin engine. I have forwarded your information to Robin America and I would expect that they will contact you with more information. Robin has had great success with their V-twin engines. As a distributor for Robin, we have had numerous customers use these engines without any trouble. We have had very few warranty claims filed for this engine. Robin has recently assumed the aftermarket support for the Onan/Robin engine. You could visit their website (www.robinamerica.com) for a listing of distributors and dealers in the US. Robin engines are manufactured by Fuji Heavy Industries of Japan, which also makes the Subaru automobiles, Polaris snowmobile engines, EZ-Go golf cart engines, and many other products. Please feel free to contact Robin America if you should have any questions or concerns about your engine.

                              Lynn/WIP



                              >From: "Nancy & Heiti"
                              >To:
                              >Subject: EH-64 mtbf
                              >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:38:22 -0800
                              >
                              >Hi
                              > I have recently purchased a Miller welder with one of your EH-64 20.5hp
                              >engines on it... is a very sweet running unit.. but there seems to be some
                              >controversy in the welding community about length of Life Cycle, MTBF,
                              >reliability and failure modes as opposed to the Kohler command 20hp engine
                              >that is also available on this welder... you might find a discussion on the
                              >Miller Motorsports Ask
                              >Andy forum to be of interest.... here is a link..
                              >
                              >http://www.millermotorsports.com/mbo...=&threadid=727
                              >
                              >sure would appreciate some input from your side... and yes I know that this
                              >engine is badged Onan... but it is described as a Robin in the manual and
                              >sure looks like your EH-64
                              >
                              >Thanks
                              >Heiti Narma
                              >
                              .

                              *******************************************
                              The more you know, The better you know, How little you know

                              “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”

                              Buy the best tools you can afford.. Learn to use them to the best of your ability.. and take care of them...

                              My Blue Stuff:
                              Dynasty 350DX Tigrunner
                              Dynasty 200DX
                              Millermatic 350P w/25ft Alumapro & 30A
                              Millermatic 200

                              TONS of Non-Blue Equip, plus CNC Mill, Lathes & a Plasmacam w/ PowerMax-1000

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Great work .That all I can Say.You got them sending feedback!

                                Comment

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