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7014 vs 7018 on the farm

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  • mongobird
    replied
    Originally posted by chewinggum View Post
    Dot 5 brake fluid is purple for identification.
    CG
    You are right, blue/purple. We are all looking pretty dumb on that one.

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  • chewinggum
    replied
    Dot 5 brake fluid is purple for identification.
    CG

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  • old jupiter
    replied
    Me, too!! And it wasn't just a slight change of hue, but so dramatic a violet color as to instantly catch the eye. If it wasn't the argon, then WHAT? As I said, this was brake fluid from a newly-opened sealed plastic quart container. It has been a long while, but I believe the pressure-bleeder, which I had disassembled and detail-cleaned, would have been dry other than whatever moisture was in the air; I doubt that, for instance, there would have been any significant residue from any solvent I might have used in the cleaning. A head-scratcher for sure. Maybe for the heck of it I should try again and see if the effect is reproduced . . . but meanwhile I have a supply of cool-looking fluid for brake jobs, LOL.

    As to whether the silica gel or the 7018 coating draws moisture more effectively, I just figure that whatever the dessicant picks up is that much less for the rod to pick up . . .
    Last edited by old jupiter; 09-09-2015, 09:55 AM.

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  • mongobird
    replied
    It kind of goes back to the concept of what material shows what affinity to water, and presents a localized partial pressure gradient to attract more water than other materials in the localized atmosphere.

    I am sure there are tables showing what desiccants have what affinity to water. If the characteristics of the 7018 rod are known one can then predict the effectiveness of a desiccant in keeping 7018 dry.

    My bet is that it is a much lower partial pressure than is needed to keep wire from corroding.

    Going back to the concept of using LN2 or even Ar as the prevailing local atmosphere...at least it does not come with moisture...just that it may suck it up faster than we would wish. So one thing is to look at how water vapor is absorbed into an atmosphere of N2 or Ar, or He or some other gas.

    (I remain perplexed at the purple brake fluid...)

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  • cwgrizz
    replied
    Welding wire is one thing... 7018 LoHy rod "may" be something else. Desiccant does work for removing moisture from lots of things ie gun cabinets, electronic storage, etc. Still not so sure about LoHy that "also" absorbs moisture.

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  • Bentrod
    replied
    Desiccant does work.

    At work they repackage our rolls of 100 wire for welding HSLA-100 steel plate into plastic bags with two packages of the stuff and store it in buildings, but not in heated ovens or anything. Considering what that plate is used for, and where on the ships, it's storage would not be allowed if it was not overly studied by the government.

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  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    7014 vs 7018 on the farm

    Blowing stuff up? Now this post is on the right track...

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  • mongobird
    replied
    Originally posted by mcostello View Post
    Does anyone know if Argon is dry? As opposed to moisture laden.
    Coming from a high pressure tank and as a by product of fractional distillation, I would expect no moisture. However an open container of Ar exposed to the atmosphere will have a low partial pressure of H2O and will quickly acquire moisture.

    Just pour a little liquid N2 into your rod container. Ha ha.

    I could calculate the moisture transfer rate, but I expect it to be pretty quick.

    Oh, if you do try the LN2 trick don't seal the o-ring on the rod container until the LN2 boils off. You don't want plastic shrapnel from a burst rod container.

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  • mcostello
    replied
    Does anyone know if Argon is dry? As opposed to moisture laden.

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  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    7014 vs 7018 on the farm

    I use very little rod to be completely honest. Although every time I do light up with a rod a remember that I actually really like stick welding.

    So I picked up a used rod oven, a little bitty 115v one, for $25. Holds 10 lbs of rod or so. I used to put all sorts of rod in it, but I think it's counter productive for some of them. Can't remember which ones now. I think it was some maintenance rod I've had laying around. I'll throw a picture of it up of it. It works well for me because it's small and portable.

    I remember when I was in the army, my mother used to send me cookies....Don't stop reading yet, I'm about to relate it welding rods...she would pack them on too of a layer of bread...layer of cookies, layer of break, etc. the cookies would suck the moisture out of the bread and stay nice and fresh. I would think that something designed to absorb moisture would do similar, ie, the desiccant packets inside the rod tube. Thoughts?

    And yes, OJ, you speak fluent southeast texanese I see...ain't never needed none of that there fancy weldin rod!

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  • cwgrizz
    replied
    Originally posted by ryanjones2150 View Post
    I don't think allowing the flux coating to absorb the moisture is a viable solution since that's the part of the rod you're trying to keep dry in the first place.
    Ryan, I really wasn't saying that you shouldn't try to keep LoHy rods as dry as possible, but my feeling is that the flux will probably be as apt to absorb moisture as the desiccant. In other words, both the rod AND the desiccant will absorb moisture at about the same rate if placed together. I don't have any data to back that up, it is just my own assumption. YMMV. Of course if you have to open a box of LoHy and use only part of it, then seal it as good as you can. Tape the lid, Oring sealed container... LoHy rods can only be kept in a heater for a limited amount of time and still be acceptable for "code" work (to my understanding). Once that time limit has expired, the rod cannot be used on the job. I'm sure this results in a good source of rod for the welder when he goes home at night. He can use it as he wants then. Ha! If I felt the need for LoHy on a regular basis, I would get a heater, but now the investment is not worth it to me. Also what I have read is that the "homebrew" refrigerator-lightbulb heaters will not really do it for the LoHy. I'm sure it helps "some," but not sure if the expense of the electricity used is worth the few rods you may save.

    I just patched a FEL bucket and used 6011. I suppose, LoHy would have been nice to use, but... I didn't want to break open a box and let it get contaminated with moisture. That is the truth. Ha!

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  • old jupiter
    replied
    I agree; no inspector is ever checking what I do, but still, when I'm welding "fancier" steels (SE Texan for higher carbon, alloy, etc., ain't it, Ryan?) than mild steel, I want to give my welds every chance, so I don't leave lo-hy rod out to suck up moisture. Even if you don't have a rod oven or a warm rod-storage cabinet, you can still keep the cap on the can almost all the time, electrical-taped at the end of the day.
    Even if I were only using 7018 for mild steel, I'd still try to keep it dry (this doesn't apply to 6011 or 7014 or other non-lo-hy rod, some of which can work better with a small percentage of moisture in the coating). But maybe I'm being overly-fussy, Grizz; hydrogen embrittlement isn't a factor with mild steel, you're right.


    Silica gel bags of various sizes come packaged with various things you buy. I save 'em, keep 'em in the rod oven, and usually put one or two in my opened cans of lo-hy at some point.

    Dandeman, I share your idea about using that bottle of argon as a displacer-of-air in various containers, and have a story about doing that. As you know, regular DOT 3 and 4 brake fluid will draw moisture out of the air, lowering its boiling point, which you really don't want. Somebody gave me a pressure-bleeder, which I cleaned up and mostly filled with fresh brake fluid. This was way more fluid than I'd use on any one brake-job, and it was going to sit there on the shelf in the pressure-bleeder canister for long periods of time, absorbing whatever moisture (probably not much, actually) was in the bleeder. So I ran some argon into the bleeder, hoping to displace the air over the brake fluid. Now get this: argon is supposed to be inert, right?, not combine with anything. But the next time I got the pressure-bleeder down and did a brake-job . . . I saw that the argon-stored brake fluid had turned a wild violet color!!

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  • ryanjones2150
    replied
    7014 vs 7018 on the farm

    I don't think allowing the flux coating to absorb the moisture is a viable solution since that's the part of the rod you're trying to keep dry in the first place.

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  • cwgrizz
    replied
    This is another interesting thread that is typical to many others on the subject. As with most similar threads it has lots of opinions, some facts, but mostly questions. Ha! I am like many and don't have a real answer and have also done like some: I have a package or two of unopened 7018 because I don't want to open them for one or two rods. Actually, the thought has occurred to me that the packaging couldn't do any more than the Oring sealed containers that can be purchased for storing rods. I mean, a cardboard box sealed with a cellophane wrap... how can that seal out moisture? The sealed cans are a different story.

    No actual experience on this, but adding desiccant to the storage container "might" possibly help, but I feel that the rod coating will be as effective as the desiccant is in absorbing moisture, so not sure how much help it would be.

    After reading so many of these threads, I have about decided to boil it down to this: Code work, you must follow ALL guidelines ie throw out any 7018 exposed over XX hours. For everyday stuff, just use it. Do whatever it takes to make it run well for you. Stick it and let it cook off (may or may not work for you), heat it up too specs for the time specified (most don't have the capabilities to do this according to tech literature), use it as you find it, or like some just use another rod ie 7014, 6011... and learn to run it well.

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  • dandeman
    replied
    Use CO2/Argon to store 7018s in?

    Since many of us have a MIG around with the associated CO2/Argon cylinder I wonder if storing unused 7018s in a small air tight container purged with CO2/argon gas from the MIG would work..

    CO2 is heavy gas compared to ambient atmosphere and putting the MIG gun in the rod container (with wire feed turned off) and pulling the trigger would displace ambient air in the container with CO2/argon, then put the lid on it.

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