Trying to decide what generator welder I should purchase.

[Sberry]

I remember when I was starting there a guy about the same age bought a new truck, new machine, I forget the cost but spent some astronomical amount. He said he could do ok flat, vert was a little wonky and overhead was a problem.
I bet it was a problem when the bills came due.
I really done only a couple jobs, one I remember starting out where I made kind of a mess. It worked but I learned there everything didn't need to be a heavy vert.
It want I didn't know how to weld but the right one was a different matter. But those old farmers and excavators were usually impressed though by a big ole fat lo-hi that curled up. They were used to seeing poopy 13 beads.

[Sberry]

I don't care for it, I use 1/8 6011 on sheet. The amps are so much lower.

[ryanjones2150]

Trying to decide what generator welder I should purchase.

I actually have an almost new box of 6013 on my welding table right now. I use it when my nephews come over and want to piddle or when I have to teach my neighbor how to weld for the tenth time.

[Tryagn5]

Well, I take your point, but my idea was to have, as stated, the smallest sizes (like 1/16") of this low-penetration rod for the occasional times I'm stick-welding in the field, away from my Millermatic, and need to weld something thin. As you say, 6013 probably hasn't been anybody's first choice in decades, but sometimes having some oddball thing that's quick and handy and good enough is preferable to fooling around with something better but less handy, don't you think? After all, welders of those days did make serviceable welds with the stuff.


FWIW, if anybody has a fondness for old-tech, I see a twin carbon arc-torch with a few carbons, for sale on Craigslist, Seattle-Tacoma. "Tryagn5," this is another example of where something obsolete still might have an occasional use just because it's handy. I have one of these carbon-arc torches (again, old Sears Craftsman) that I carry along because it takes little space and I can use it for a quicker means of heating something than spooling out the O/A hoses, etc., etc., plus it's kind of fun to show it off.

Twin carbon arc is not obsolete. Maybe the holder. Process is the same but who drags a 500amp machine to run it. Anyhow still using a carbon arc electrode.
Now i carry a k2000 and a k4000 torch. What i dont carry is 6013
Because there is much bettar rods. Same reason people stopped carrying flux and steel rods when 6013 came out.
Kevin

[ryanjones2150]

Trying to decide what generator welder I should purchase.

I like the carbon arc. Anything that makes smoke and sparks and is pretty nasty to use is usually pretty fun.

I lived right outside of Seattle for 10 years. Nice area. Probably wouldn't make the trip for a Craigslist add though.

[old jupiter]

Well, I take your point, but my idea was to have, as stated, the smallest sizes (like 1/16") of this low-penetration rod for the occasional times I'm stick-welding in the field, away from my Millermatic, and need to weld something thin. As you say, 6013 probably hasn't been anybody's first choice in decades, but sometimes having some oddball thing that's quick and handy and good enough is preferable to fooling around with something better but less handy, don't you think? After all, welders of those days did make serviceable welds with the stuff.


FWIW, if anybody has a fondness for old-tech, I see a twin carbon arc-torch with a few carbons, for sale on Craigslist, Seattle-Tacoma. "Tryagn5," this is another example of where something obsolete still might have an occasional use just because it's handy. I have one of these carbon-arc torches (again, old Sears Craftsman) that I carry along because it takes little space and I can use it for a quicker means of heating something than spooling out the O/A hoses, etc., etc., plus it's kind of fun to show it off.

[Tryagn5]

6013...

To the O.P., I might have clarified that I haven't used the old Sears gear in many years, even though it still works; I'm just saying you don't have to have the good gear to get started. What saves you, though, and saved me, is getting a good welding education from professional instructors, which is far more important than the level of the equipment. A properly trained new welder even right out of school can consistently make sound welds in any position with fairly crude equipment. Like the others here, I have frequently had to fix some truly awful jobs done by fellows that bought capable equipment, better than any I started with, but only imagine they know how to use it. I'm talking about guys who were charging money for their bird-poop welds.

Anybody with a thousand bucks can buy a new blue or red wirefeed welder, which appears deceptively simple to use. "Just pull the trigger, right? Why would anybody in this modern era want to use one of those nasty old obsolete stick-welders that are so hard to strike and run?" Well, there seem to be several veterans here that aren't buying that attitude.

That said, I REALLY need to take the time to do a bunch of practice on scrap (and test coupons) and get my various wirefeed skills up a few notches!! Dual-shield in particular is just such a wonderful process WHEN DONE WELL.

Well, Sberry, you have said another thing that interests me, about E6013. This is the rod that the very old self-teaching welding texts such as the one by Forney used to recommend as beginners' rod. Now I think I'm a decent stick-welder, but darned if I can run 6013 worth a hang!! I have a can full of very small sizes of 6013 that I got because it's a low-penetration rod that I figured I could use for thin stuff, but whenever it try it, I'm not too happy with the results. Amps up, amps down, drag it, stitch it, weave it, I never seem to find the sweet spot. I assume he fault is with me, and that if I had the amps and the technique down, the rod will work fine. Again, this is something for which I should set aside practice time, and not put this off until I actually want to USE it. Of course now I can MIG-weld thin stuff, but that means dragging out another machine in the middle of a small job where I'm probably repairing cracks in various parts of varied thickness. We never ran 6013 in school, and I wish I had an old-timer to look over my shoulder and tell me how to do it right.

Why would anyone want to run 6013, when there are much bettar rods? Kinda of like converting an electronic igntion back to points. Learning to run 6013 would be a waste of time. Now this is just my opionion, but ask yourself this...why would anyone choose to use a low pentration, lower strength rod that say 7018? Espically when there is not a single proceduce with 6013 as the spec'd rod. I use the use for 6010 in the root, and in downhill pipe. I can see no advantage of 6013.
Kevin

[H80N]

To the O.P., I might have clarified that I haven't used the old Sears gear in many years, even though it still works; I'm just saying you don't have to have the good gear to get started. What saves you, though, and saved me, is getting a good welding education from professional instructors, which is far more important than the level of the equipment. A properly trained new welder even right out of school can consistently make sound welds in any position with fairly crude equipment. Like the others here, I have frequently had to fix some truly awful jobs done by fellows that bought capable equipment, better than any I started with, but only imagine they know how to use it. I'm talking about guys who were charging money for their bird-poop welds.

Anybody with a thousand bucks can buy a new blue or red wirefeed welder, which appears deceptively simple to use. "Just pull the trigger, right? Why would anybody in this modern era want to use one of those nasty old obsolete stick-welders that are so hard to strike and run?" Well, there seem to be several veterans here that aren't buying that attitude.

That said, I REALLY need to take the time to do a bunch of practice on scrap (and test coupons) and get my various wirefeed skills up a few notches!! Dual-shield in particular is just such a wonderful process WHEN DONE WELL.

Well, Sberry, you have said another thing that interests me, about E6013. This is the rod that the very old self-teaching welding texts such as the one by Forney used to recommend as beginners' rod. Now I think I'm a decent stick-welder, but darned if I can run 6013 worth a hang!! I have a can full of very small sizes of 6013 that I got because it's a low-penetration rod that I figured I could use for thin stuff, but whenever it try it, I'm not too happy with the results. Amps up, amps down, drag it, stitch it, weave it, I never seem to find the sweet spot. I assume he fault is with me, and that if I had the amps and the technique down, the rod will work fine. Again, this is something for which I should set aside practice time, and not put this off until I actually want to USE it. Of course now I can MIG-weld thin stuff, but that means dragging out another machine in the middle of a small job where I'm probably repairing cracks in various parts of varied thickness. We never ran 6013 in school, and I wish I had an old-timer to look over my shoulder and tell me how to do it right.

Of course solid training and strong skills are at the heart of being able to accomplish your job...Do not think that anybody disagrees on that point...

the addition of MIG & TIG equipment with the attendant skills just allows you to broaden the scope of your work...

There is no magic bullet... an unskilled worker will still produce poor work... no matter how expensive or sophisticated his equipment might be...
BUT ... the truly skilled and trained operator can produce amazing results... given the right tools..

[old jupiter]

To the O.P., I might have clarified that I haven't used the old Sears gear in many years, even though it still works; I'm just saying you don't have to have the good gear to get started. What saves you, though, and saved me, is getting a good welding education from professional instructors, which is far more important than the level of the equipment. A properly trained new welder even right out of school can consistently make sound welds in any position with fairly crude equipment. Like the others here, I have frequently had to fix some truly awful jobs done by fellows that bought capable equipment, better than any I started with, but only imagine they know how to use it. I'm talking about guys who were charging money for their bird-poop welds.

Anybody with a thousand bucks can buy a new blue or red wirefeed welder, which appears deceptively simple to use. "Just pull the trigger, right? Why would anybody in this modern era want to use one of those nasty old obsolete stick-welders that are so hard to strike and run?" Well, there seem to be several veterans here that aren't buying that attitude.

That said, I REALLY need to take the time to do a bunch of practice on scrap (and test coupons) and get my various wirefeed skills up a few notches!! Dual-shield in particular is just such a wonderful process WHEN DONE WELL.

Well, Sberry, you have said another thing that interests me, about E6013. This is the rod that the very old self-teaching welding texts such as the one by Forney used to recommend as beginners' rod. Now I think I'm a decent stick-welder, but darned if I can run 6013 worth a hang!! I have a can full of very small sizes of 6013 that I got because it's a low-penetration rod that I figured I could use for thin stuff, but whenever it try it, I'm not too happy with the results. Amps up, amps down, drag it, stitch it, weave it, I never seem to find the sweet spot. I assume he fault is with me, and that if I had the amps and the technique down, the rod will work fine. Again, this is something for which I should set aside practice time, and not put this off until I actually want to USE it. Of course now I can MIG-weld thin stuff, but that means dragging out another machine in the middle of a small job where I'm probably repairing cracks in various parts of varied thickness. We never ran 6013 in school, and I wish I had an old-timer to look over my shoulder and tell me how to do it right.

[Sberry]

Especially in a rural setting

Only if the demand is there. Lots of places there is simply not enough to support it.

[Sberry]

I did a mobile the other day, used customer power, the thing involved 2 hrs or so, had one weld about 4 or 5 inches I had to make another pass on with small electrode, I would have saved 5 minutes or less with a big machine. If it involved a couple hrs of welding, if this was every week an competitive I would look at it differently but today would see how much I had and tend to cross that bridge when I came to it.

Lots of stick only guys beating each other to death at cut rate prices.... and starving to death... just look at how many hobby welders here buy a beat up engine drive and expect to get rich by undercutting the competition.. I have seen hundreds of threads over the years

These are not a real threat. They pose a bigger marketing problem than a real threat to the work.
If the secret to business was simply buying more equipment than the next guy it would be easy. I know some that think the next magic tool is right around the corner. There are lots that try this and yes they are broke but that's not usually why. Some of the hobby types have better machines and some of them are good but I don't want the work that anyone could do anyway, I wouldn't want their jobs and its even unlikley they could do mine. I get one or 2 on occasion where they tried.

I hear it, oh ****, that's way different than my laid off bud some kind of welder did it before,, well yes, its broke and he had a slight problem with the vert and oh (pretty much right in front of him) let alone where he could only see one side and missed half the joint or skipped it completely because it was to hard.
Not all of them are like that, I ran in to a guy who is a self professed 6013 king. I am usually leery but I looked at a bumper install he did and wouldn't have a problem with paying the bill for it.

[Sberry]

Very interesting to see you say that. I seem to end up doing almost all stick welding (repairs upon and some fabrication for heavy equipment and their associated trucks and trailers, as a semi-retirement income), out of long habit and sheer personal inertia. But I keep reading that all the smarter guys than me have long-since mostly abandoned stick-welding and gone to wire-feed welding (all three types, depending on the situation), which makes me feel like the last buggy-whip maker. Yet now here you assert that stick skills are primary for mobilewelding . . .

If a guy is a fair stick welder the feeders will come easy. I agree if real welding is the name of the game then it pays to use a feeder, if its some general fab and repair then a lot of the work is fab and the welding can be rather minor in terms of time. You get no argument from me that wire is faster an would be the first if I was bidding welding.

[Tryagn5]

Why not put in a spool of no-gas innershield wire and continue to use the feeder? Or have a second feeder set up that way, since even though innershield is harder to clean up than dual-shield, it's still supposed to be a lot faster than stick (meaning you could quickly pay for the extra gear). Understand, I'm not arguing at all, and am just interested in hearing what you say about this.

As far as the best equipment to have, I suppose I started with the worst, forty-some years ago, during my first quarter in welding school. A Sears Craftsman 295A buzz-box, built for Sears by Emerson Electric, and bought by me at a big discount from the Sears surplus store, where I also bought a Craftsman (by Harris) 2-stage O/A outfit, and a Craftsman (by Singer)(yep, sewing machines) 7-9" side-grinder. Pretty marginal operation (60' 230V drop-cord, with some homemade adapters), but with that hobby-level stuff in my shop or loaded into my '66 Econoline Supervan, I made thousands and thousands of dollars. And never had any come-backs or complaints about the work.

And I still have all of that old stuff, which still works. Makes you feel sorry for the guys today who have to buy entry-level equipment, which all now comes from China, and certainly won't be running after forty years!! Oh, I have it all except the old snub-nose Econoline, which is the one thing I now wish I had kept, dang!!

I used to runn lots of nr212. Hate the smoke, dont like how overhead it tends to be a stringer type weld, then i found by carrying a tarp and plywood i could beat the wind 95 percent of the time with dual shield(71 outershield elite).
There are times where 7018 is still the best option. Lately have found 7014 to be very helpful on build up jobs. Only rods i rarely run is 60 series.
Kevin

[old jupiter]

I use stick when its a quick job, or so windy the feeder is useless, rest of the time its dual shield and the feeder.

Why not put in a spool of no-gas innershield wire and continue to use the feeder? Or have a second feeder set up that way, since even though innershield is harder to clean up than dual-shield, it's still supposed to be a lot faster than stick (meaning you could quickly pay for the extra gear). Understand, I'm not arguing at all, and am just interested in hearing what you say about this.

As far as the best equipment to have, I suppose I started with the worst, forty-some years ago, during my first quarter in welding school. A Sears Craftsman 295A buzz-box, built for Sears by Emerson Electric, and bought by me at a big discount from the Sears surplus store, where I also bought a Craftsman (by Harris) 2-stage O/A outfit, and a Craftsman (by Singer)(yep, sewing machines) 7-9" side-grinder. Pretty marginal operation (60' 230V drop-cord, with some homemade adapters), but with that hobby-level stuff in my shop or loaded into my '66 Econoline Supervan, I made thousands and thousands of dollars. And never had any come-backs or complaints about the work.

And I still have all of that old stuff, which still works. Makes you feel sorry for the guys today who have to buy entry-level equipment, which all now comes from China, and certainly won't be running after forty years!! Oh, I have it all except the old snub-nose Econoline, which is the one thing I now wish I had kept, dang!!

[H80N]

What really matters is what type of mobile welding service he is providing.

Take my little niche side work for example...repair of commercial kitchen equipment, in the kitchen either before or after service. Majority of that is stainless. For me, my maxstar 150 sth works perfect and I always have 115v service and can usually find 230v if I need it. My work is kept to a tight area, out of the way of the kitchen staff, quick in and out. Done. Happy customer.

My only point is to find what purpose he is building this plan for. There is no such thing as a one size fits all rig. Sure there are multiprocess this and that, but I'd rather have a TIG machine that wants to a TIG machine and a plasma cutter that wants to be a plasma cutter.

I would love to have a big engine drive and branch out my mobile skills, but that just ain't happenin' at the moment. An engine drive is in the works and I've been looking at them quite closely for a very near purchase. But none of them do everything I want them to do, which really irritates the living daylights out of me. If I'm gonna pay that much cabbage for a piece of equipment, I'd darn sure wish it did everything. Maybe the $15k+ ones will, but that's not even on my radar.

Excellent example of an underserved niche...

If you had AC TIG... you could do their pizza paddles too... any place that does pizza always has a few cracked ones laying around..
Point is... there is a lot of repairable aluminum stuff in those kitchens too that might sweeten your visit...