Welding inside tight angle

[ggodwin]

Good Morning all,
I thought I had posted something similar to this before however, I can't find the thread.

I'm learning daily at my TIG welds. However, I am struggling to make this weld look remotely decent. Currently, I move into the tight area. However, I notice on other bicycle frames that the weld is starting inside the tight angle area instead of moving into the tight spot. I have attempted to start my bean inside first but really not able to get it started.

I use a Miller Diversion 165.
Typically I use a #7 cup and once I get into the tight spot I switch to a #5.

I assume I need to have a very tight cone in order to get into this area to start. How would you start your beads in a tight angle area like the one in the picture.

[OscarJr]

the arc will always take the path of least resistance. If the tungsten is closer to the side tubes, it will tend to arc there. You need to use the thinnest tungsten you can safely use without melting it or eroding it prematurely, and you need a very long taper to it, so the sides of the tungsten itself are not closer to the side tubes than the tip is to the vertex of where the tubes meet in that tight spot. Also, the tighter you can hold the tip to the tight spot, the better chance you have of initiating (and keeping) the arc going from the tip and not having it end up wandering all around. Hope that made sense.

[H80N]

Skinny long cups...

Have you considered the long slender cups??

they make it a lot easier to get deep into tight places...

[ggodwin]

Oscar,
Yes that all makes total sense. H80, Yes, I have have considered it and plan to buy some tomorrow. Would you recomment going down as small as a #4?

I was concerned about changing the cup size so much because I don't want my bead to vary in width so much. (Is this a silly concern?) Once I have the bead more on the outside should I switch back to a 6 or 7?

Considering a smaller cup and following Oscar's advise; how much of the tungsten should I have exposed out side of the cup?

Recently, I have improved my welds buy having less sticking out. It seems the that the heat cone is much more consistent. I leave maybe 1/4" and that is it on normal beads.

Also, Do you agree that I should start inside the vortex and work my way out?

[ryanjones2150]

What about using a gas lens and sticking out further? I've never done aluminum like that, but I've had some situations, maybe not quite that tight but fairly close at least, with mild steel and chromoly joints in roll cages. I got a stubby gas lens kit and stuck my tungsten way out there. But, again, that was DC on steel. Might be worth a try though.

On the starting stop, I believe I would usually start in the tight areas. If I'm gonna be in a bind with my positioning, I like to start with the hardest position and move to the easiest. Just seems to be a little less fatiguing. But sometimes on those roll cages, you find yourself upside down across the front seat and using the foot pedal like a thigh master.

[ggodwin]

What does the gas lens add to the equation? I'm open for everything as this is my biggest area of weakness. But, what exactly does the lens to the arc?

[ryanjones2150]

Welding inside tight angle

A gas lens diffuses the gas shield better, gives you better coverage with less CFH and allows you to stick the tungsten out quite a bit more and still keep the gas shield.

If you get the stubby kit, it'll also turn your #17 torch into about the same size as a #9 torch. That might be useful to you as well in those tight spots.

You may have to rode it online. My LWS doesn't stock them and didn't even know what I was asking for. Two sources I know of are:

www.usaweld.com
www.weldmongerstore.com (really good description of the benefits on this site)

[Ltbadd]

I believe I would usually start in the tight areas. If I'm gonna be in a bind with my positioning, I like to start with the hardest position and move to the easiest.

I agree, except in this situation. If you start out in the tight spot the aluminum is going to be cold and establishing a puddle is going to require more amps. If you start below and finish coming to the Vee then it's pre heated and it'll be easier to do IMO

[ggodwin]

I agree, except in this situation. If you start out in the tight spot the aluminum is going to be cold and establishing a puddle is going to require more amps. If you start below and finish coming to the Vee then it's pre heated and it'll be easier to do IMO

Regarding requiring more amps where we start.

If I weld around a tube for example and start and the top, go around and finish at the top. How weak is that spot where I started and stopped? Especially if the adjuting tube is twice the wall thickness? It seams like that would be a weak spot to me.

[Country Metals]

If you are starting out and trying to learn tight joints, then build yourself an even worse joint. Once you can get the hang of a horrible joint then you can easily manage a difficult joint.

I will also say that you are using a rather large torch anyways. That was a "hobby" torch and you are trying to do professional quality joints which it will fight you right off the start.

The best advice I c an give you is practice! Being comfortable is the most important part of welding.

[WillieB]

I seldom weld steel, when I do I'm amazed how easy it is to aim the arc. Going back to aluminum, it's frustrating that it has a mind of its own. With the Dynasty I can turn up frequency, turn up balance, use as small a tungsten as possible, mix helium,use a gas lens. A little trick I have discovered is to heat a bit away from the site of the intended bead, then as the al gets hot, steer it into the joint. As soon as I have a bridge, I hit the pedal to thoroughly wet the spot for good penetration, and fusion. Weld in all directions from a tight corner to points where it isn't hard to reach.

I use a small, very blunt tungsten. I believe the AC electron flow is better in a smooth cylinder than a ground taper. Think of an electron, so tiny, the rough surface scratches would be like you walking from one mountain peak to another. You can't jump that far, neither can the electrons. Leave the tungsten straight, then taper only very blunt at the end. It will improve the width of your arc.

[OscarJr]

I seldom weld steel, when I do I'm amazed how easy it is to aim the arc. Going back to aluminum, it's frustrating that it has a mind of its own. With the Dynasty I can turn up frequency, turn up balance, use as small a tungsten as possible, mix helium,use a gas lens. A little trick I have discovered is to heat a bit away from the site of the intended bead, then as the al gets hot, steer it into the joint. As soon as I have a bridge, I hit the pedal to thoroughly wet the spot for good penetration, and fusion. Weld in all directions from a tight corner to points where it isn't hard to reach.

I use a small, very blunt tungsten. I believe the AC electron flow is better in a smooth cylinder than a ground taper. Think of an electron, so tiny, the rough surface scratches would be like you walking from one mountain peak to another. You can't jump that far, neither can the electrons. Leave the tungsten straight, then taper only very blunt at the end. It will improve the width of your arc.

The trade-off from using a short/blunt taper is that it takes more amperage to stabilize the arc to come off the tip than a long taper.

[ryanjones2150]

I believe I would usually start in the tight areas. If I'm gonna be in a bind with my positioning, I like to start with the hardest position and move to the easiest.

I agree, except in this situation. If you start out in the tight spot the aluminum is going to be cold and establishing a puddle is going to require more amps. If you start below and finish coming to the Vee then it's pre heated and it'll be easier to do IMO

Excellent point sir.

[griff01]

I seldom weld steel, when I do I'm amazed how easy it is to aim the arc. Going back to aluminum, it's frustrating that it has a mind of its own. With the Dynasty I can turn up frequency, turn up balance, use as small a tungsten as possible, mix helium,use a gas lens. A little trick I have discovered is to heat a bit away from the site of the intended bead, then as the al gets hot, steer it into the joint. As soon as I have a bridge, I hit the pedal to thoroughly wet the spot for good penetration, and fusion. Weld in all directions from a tight corner to points where it isn't hard to reach.

I use a small, very blunt tungsten. I believe the AC electron flow is better in a smooth cylinder than a ground taper. Think of an electron, so tiny, the rough surface scratches would be like you walking from one mountain peak to another. You can't jump that far, neither can the electrons. Leave the tungsten straight, then taper only very blunt at the end. It will improve the width of your arc.

Data from "Diamond Ground" products will backup your observation about the short taper. It works.

Griff

[ggodwin]

I am using a #17. Do you recommend that I go smaller and use the #9?