Clean Air

[H80N]

Hi
have been kicking around the fume problem with a few friends and done just a little bit of research... practical clean air systems for under the helmet seem to be in their infancy... seems like the majority of solutions out there rely on remote turbine or filtered compressed air.. both of which are expensive, bulky and constrict movement... dragging another hose along is not a good answer.(plus the turbine heats the air.. while compressed air systems MUST have clean petroleum free air from the compressor before filtration..which most compressors do not provide...)
There are a few fanny pack filtered forced air systems out there like the Hornell ADFLO or the Jackson Shadowaire II... both of which are headed in the right direction.. but are very expensive..... considering the relative simplicity of the problem.. maybe something like the 3m Air-Mate powerpack with an adaptor that might velcro onto some of the more popular helmets? (many of us have more than one helmet.. and if one quits .. would it not be nice to switch the system to your backup??)
We have a lot of VERY smart people on this board coming from diverse backgrounds... bet that if we kick it around some.. we might come up with a practical, safe, affordable, and comfortable solution..
what do you think?
Thanks
and
Happy Holidays

Heiti

[H80N]

Hi
am not looking for us to all make our own... but it is clear that most of the manufacturers have either missed the mark entirely or are close but overpriced... FACT: weldors suffer from one of the highest rates of respiratory distress or disease of any profession... FACT:
we have a forum of highly inteligent and qualified people gathered here.. people that face these problems every day... and have the intelligence and problem solving abilities to deal with this and are unsurpassed regardless of formal degree..
what i am proposing is that we all work this out and hope that some smart manufacturer.. will pick up the ball..and build a good system... to the benefit of all of us that fuse metal on a regular basis...
with respect
Heiti

[Paul Seaman]

This is a problem for a lot of shops, I have a helper but not a solution. In my shop I have a squirrel cage fan like a fireplace insert uses, but I use the suction side with a section of dryer vent hose held to my bench with a spring clamp about 2 feet away from my welding. Not a solution but it helps me, and i can't afford the hornell unit for my speedglas. If you find an economical solution for a small shop please post me back, thanks

[Scott S]

Here is the vent system I just made for my shop. It works very well.

[H80N]

pjseaman/scot s
fume extractors and smoke suckers are a wonderful idea and should be implemented wherever possible... but what i was thinking about was a man wearable unit that would put positively pressured clean air under the helmet.... and you bet what you guys have done is a great idea... pls keep the good ideas coming...
thanks
Heiti

[HAWK]

H80N,

Here is a copy of the email I sent you posted as requested. It just kind of came about from doing mobile aluminum mig and large (up to 1/8") flux core alloys. Either way the fumes are nasty.

I have not given much thought to hood ventilation systems. Most all my work is out doors except gas shielded work. If possible I set up a wind shield and work outside every chance I get. For heavy jobs and long hours of indoor work I use my buddy’s shop. It has 40’ ceilings with exhaust fan window shutters near the ceiling. Now for the real world: I like the way my Optrel Satellite helmet adjusts to pull the bottom of the hood up against my neck/upper chest. This keeps most of the fumes out. I have been known to hold my breath for over a minute to properly finish a weld without taking in all the “garbage” from the arc, filler, flux, etc. I must confess that this is an area of research I have sloughed over. I sometimes use an $11.00 window box fan to move the fumes out. It can be a trick blowing out the fumes without blowing away your gas shield. If there is a need, then we can find a solution-effective and inexpensive. What about a fume hood of sorts: Fab a small 3”x 8” rectangular intake and attach to a wire wound vacuum hose. Attach this hose to the vacuum side of a Sears SHOP_VAC and position it 20’ or more away from the welding area. Attach a magnet to the intake to hold it near your welding surface to suck in the fumes. Experiment with the intake location and amount of suction to find a combination that works-we might even have to fab a small stand with a heavy base to hold the suction intake in the proper area to get the job done. This may be too simple and does not attach to your helmet ; but it could be effective and is inexpensive. The vacuum can run from shop or generator power. Give me a break because this is off the cuff. What do you guys think???

[H80N]

Hawk
what i envision is a positivly pressured portable lightweight system that would adapt to any helmet.. to provide clean filtered air... in ADDITION to any smoke suckers and fume axtractors that may be employed..... the technology is there.. it is for us to show the manufacturerers what we need...
thank you my friend
Heiti

[HAWK]

Let me think it through and put a schematic together and figure out what affordable apparatus may be used to accomplish the task.

[Chopshopchopper]

You might want to check out medical, and diving.

All kinds of medical and diving devices are out there, im sure something can be used for an alternate use. check out:

http://www.respironics.com/

For one?

Use a quality mask and bring fresh air in from outside...

http://www.comfortseries.respironics...ther_masks.htm

[H80N]

Chopshopchopper
I appreciate the thought but hope for a system where you do not need to wear a mask at all... where your helmet is your clean air space... I wore oxygen masks in high altitude research aircraft for many years... you have no idea how uncomfortable they can become... I was at altitude where it was cold in the bird... imagine wearing one all day (and trying to work) on one of those hot humid days in July or Aug...
The best manufactured system that I have seen to date is the Hornell Adflo system........

http://www.hornell.com/hsi/admain.html

But with a street price of about $750 is awfully pricey for the average guy..

Thanks
and keep on looking

Heiti

[HAWK]

http://www.hornell.com/hsi/admain.html

H80N,

Great looking product. Maybe we need to examine perspective. Most of us here on the forum that make our living welding, specifically mobile as you and I do, have invested thousands of dollars in our equipment to do the job right with the fewest problems. I believe the same goes for our health. If continued exposure to airborne by-prodcuts from the welding processes are a problem, which they are to us who weld weekly in nasty conditions, then $750.00 is a drop in the bucket compared to the damage thse airborne particulants can do to our health. What's $750.00 in this case? If you need it, cheap life insurance. I have personally smoked enough 6010's and flux cored wire to warrant such an apparatus. I don't think you can come close to reproducing such a system for this kind of money. One or two small profitable jobs will pay for it.

Just a different way to look at the situation. $750 versus cancer, lung disease, congestive heart failure, and other wicked diseases that exposure to welding gases can cause is a no brainer. Five grand plus or maybe much more in good Miller equipment, nice helmet, etc, but no breathing apparatus-what are we thinking?

This product is not for everybody, but for mobile or in plant welders in nasty conditions it sounds like a must. What do you think?

Here's a complete Jackson System. Take a look at the "only crush proof... in the industry"

http://www.arizonatools.com/catalog/browse/3190-3203,3/detail/16189/

[Chopshopchopper]

Wow.

I am new to welding and had no idea that thease products existed. I'm sure that a mask could be an agravation, and not to fun. I was thinking of the saftey factor, in wich a mask would be the safest. In school all we heard about was fosgine gas, and cadnieum. I guess thats some vicious stuff. But there is alternatives to what you are looking for. I am not even qualified to recomend anything to you BUT. Maybe some kind of shop wac. and a duct conected to the top of your helmet will do, as long as the exit to the vacume is out side??? Maybe, posibly, maybe...

[Chopshopchopper]

I take that back...

Now that I think about it the vacume should not be on top of your helmit, because that could pull stuff into your nose. Maybe, vacume frome the bottom of the helmit/mask and that would draw the stank away from your nostils.?.

In theory?

[HAWK]

Re: I take that back...

Originally posted by Chopshopchopper
Now that I think about it the vacume should not be on top of your helmit, because that could pull stuff into your nose. Maybe, vacume frome the bottom of the helmit/mask and that would draw the stank away from your nostils.?.

In theory?

Use this set up as a fume extractor from the work area. Probably not a good idea right on your face. Also stay far enough from the weld area to avoid sucking away shielding gases. It's snowy here today and I've got to try the raods. Have a great one!

[H80N]

Hawk
you are absolutely right about it being cheap insurance.. have planned on buying such a system... right after the Spectrum 2050 purchase (will be a couple of months)... my point is that there is no rocket science to the technology and that some smart manufacturer could build a system that was not tied to one specific helmet... wouldn't it be nice to attach it to your optrel or whatever the state of the art is..at the time. rather than having to buy the system over and over again as helmet technology gets better? or if your regular hat croaks on the job.. just attach it to your old cardboard huntsman? and truck on...
Further.. many welders may not have the cash to buy such a system at that price.. the weekend and hobby guys need protection too... a system that would be useable on ANY helmet (perhaps with velcro).. in the $200-$300 range would be a winner... the manufacturer that figures that out would sell a jillion of them at smaller profit per unit but would make out on the volume... right now they are being marketed as rare and exotic and thus expensive... time will improve that situation.. am just trying to push it along a little.. while promoting awareness.. my guess is that most out there were not even aware that this stuff was out there at any price..
thanks again for your always astute input
Heiti