Syncrowave 180 or Millermatic 210?

[T0M]

I am going to be making intercooler piping, exhausts and exhaust manifolds. I cant decide which welder will be best for me. I have little experience with tig but am willing to learn.

So I will mainly be welding pipes at these thicknesses:

the intercooler pipes are .120" wall 6061 aluminum.

the exhaust pipes are 18 gauge 304 stainless steel.

and as for the exhaust manifolds I am not sure what thickness I need for the tubing or the flange but I know It needs to be resistant to cracking. the exhaust manifolds are my main concern. Tubular turbo exhaust manifolds have a tendency of cracking on our cars (300zxTT).

I know the Millermatic 210 will do 3/8" in a single pass, but I dont know how thick of steel the syncrowave 180 will weld.

I also dont know if the mig or tig is more desirable for welding exhaust manifolds.

Any help would be appreciated.

[HAWK]

TOM,

I think for a all in one machine I would step up to the Syncrowave 250 Tiggrunner package. It will easily do your aluminum tube and has the extra power for the manifolds. In a production type enviroment tig is great for the intercoolers and mig for the manifolds, but the Sync 250 will handle it all with precison. Sure mig is a faster process and will work great on the thicker manifolds, but what will your tubing look like. On that wall thickness tubing, I would steer clear of mig for everday work. Also you mentioned several metals. That amounts to changing wire spools a lot. One or 2 for aluminum, one for stainless, etc. With tig just match the correct filler and off you go. All this only if you are dedicated and willing to spend the time learning and understanding the TIG process. To me there is nothing better. It takes time to master, but the rewards are great!

There are lots of great welders on ths forum who will help you out. Have you a visited a local dealer? Do they have any demo machines for mig or tig?

[T0M]

Originally posted by HAWK
TOM,
Sure mig is a faster process and will work great on the thicker manifolds, but what will your tubing look like.

Sadly there are only a handful of dealers where I live and none with demo units.

Thank you for your input. a quick question though, when you spoke of the above, granted mig wont look as good as tig, but functional, which is going to be the strongest weld?

[HAWK]

TOM,

Tig is going to be your strongest weld by nature of the fusion process.

Good luck.

[bluepower]

If you want to weld ac for aluminum and also want dc capabilities go with an Invertec V205-T AC/DC.It's a real good inverter with stick.It gots lincoln's tig touch start,hi freq,and pulse.Cheaper too.

[HAWK]

TOM,

I spoke with Bertram Chase, owner of Welding Dynamiks, a firm specializing in TIG welding of specialty alloys including titanium. He purchased the Dynasty 200DX inverter from Miller after comparing it to the Lincoln 205 inverter mentioned by bluepower. After many test over a weeks time Bertram concluded the Miller Dynasty beats the Lincoln 205 hands down. This is coming from a man who makes his living and stakes his reputation on his TIG work. Yes, the Lincoln is cheaper: ONCE AGAIN YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. It is a nice 200 amp TIG with High Frequency, Lift Arc starting, and stick modes for AC/DC capable of welding all metals. Check it out under TIG products at www.millerwelds.com

It is another option.

[T0M]

Originally posted by HAWK
TOM,

I spoke with Bertram Chase, owner of Welding Dynamiks, a firm specializing in TIG welding of specialty alloys including titanium. He purchased the Dynasty 200DX inverter from Miller after comparing it to the Lincoln 205 inverter mentioned by bluepower. After many test over a weeks time Bertram concluded the Miller Dynasty beats the Lincoln 205 hands down. This is coming from a man who makes his living and stakes his reputation on his TIG work. Yes, the Lincoln is cheaper: ONCE AGAIN YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. It is a nice 200 amp TIG with High Frequency, Lift Arc starting, and stick modes for AC/DC capable of welding all metals. Check it out under TIG products at www.millerwelds.com

It is another option.

I have seen them on ebay for around $2,300 and of the two i would pick the dynasty hands down but sadly, thats about $1000 past my budget.
the mm210 and syncrowave 180 are the mose expensive welders I can afford, and i cant find a place that sells used welders for a reasonable price.

so my options are limited.
I will also be making tubeframe chassis.

[HAWK]

Tom,

The Syncrowave 180 is a fine beginner machine. It will also last you when you become well skilled at the TIG process. The machine will limit you to somewhere in the 3/16" material thickness range on a single pass which is mainly what you are after. Multi-pass tig is certainly possible with proper joint preperation: ie, single or double v-groove joints in plate aluminum. You should be extra fine for your tubing requirements. E mail PISTOL8 on this forum. He absolutely loves his Sync 180 and has been in the business a long time. He also has a MM210 mig. Tell him I sent you his way.

[HAWK]

TOM,

I don't know if you have seen this post from ANDY on used welders.

Take a look and make some phone calls for the Syncrowave or the Dynasty.

ASKANDY
Moderator

Registered: Sep 2002
Location:
Posts: 176
Hey all...

Rock is right. During the year, each team goes through a rotation of equipment. Right now I'm doing Evernham's. Because of the large amount of equipment, I offer the distributor that services that account the first shot at taking a bulk load. Most of the take what ever they can 'cause the equipment is in such good shape. They will dust them off, tack on a little for them and resell them. If you want a used piece, You will have to contact them.
I know a few of them have Sync250 Tigrunners and a couple Dynasty Tigrunners and some MM210s.
They go fast.

The following is a list of Distributors that service my race teams.

Holox
Charlotte NC
704-596-6262
Dave Absher

James Oxygen
Hickory NC
828-310-7200
Andrew James

Machine and Welding
Winston Salem NC
336-813-9071
Rick Ward

National Welders
Concord NC
704-788-6615
Dale or Darren

[PISTOL8]

my nickle

HI TOM WELCOME AS HAWK SAYS I HAVE BOTH 210 AND 180 AND IF IT CAME DOWN TO ONLY ONE THE QUESTION WOULD BE HOW MUCH ALUMINIUM? MOSTLY ALUM. GO WITH THE180. MOSTLY STEELS GO WITH THE 210. MY PREFRENCE IS THE 210 ONLY BECUUSE I'VE JUST ABOUT MARRIED MINE. I SEE IT MORE THAN MY WIFE AND KIDS. AND IT TALKS BACK LESS THAN MY TEENAGERS. NO JOKES IT REALLY IS MY BUSIEST MACHINE AND NOW THAT I'VE SOLD THE BUSSINESS MINES GOING WITH ME TO ITS NEW GARAGE HOME AT THE HOUSE.
!!!!

[T0M]

Re: my nickle

Originally posted by PISTOL8
HI TOM WELCOME AS HAWK SAYS I HAVE BOTH 210 AND 180 AND IF IT CAME DOWN TO ONLY ONE THE QUESTION WOULD BE HOW MUCH ALUMINIUM? MOSTLY ALUM. GO WITH THE180. MOSTLY STEELS GO WITH THE 210. MY PREFRENCE IS THE 210 ONLY BECUUSE I'VE JUST ABOUT MARRIED MINE. I SEE IT MORE THAN MY WIFE AND KIDS. AND IT TALKS BACK LESS THAN MY TEENAGERS. NO JOKES IT REALLY IS MY BUSIEST MACHINE AND NOW THAT I'VE SOLD THE BUSSINESS MINES GOING WITH ME TO ITS NEW GARAGE HOME AT THE HOUSE.
!!!!

well, I can braze the aluminum piping if neccesary, but my main concern is that the turbo exhaust manifolds have got to be welded well, I am not concerned with looks so much as I am concerned with the issue of them cracking, there are a handful of ss manifolds made for the 300zx twin turbo that people (on the forum) have bought and they have all cracked within a year.

as I mentioned before, I am going to be welding tube frame chassis as well, which seems like a job you would want a mig, for the speed of it.
but It all comes down to which one will make the strongest weld for exhaust manifold issue.


How thick of steel with the syncrowave 180 weld?

[T0M]

Originally posted by HAWK
TOM,

I don't know if you have seen this post from ANDY on used welders.

Take a look and make some phone calls for the Syncrowave or the Dynasty.

thanks HAWK, I will definately look into it.

[HAWK]

Tom,
From your post: How thick of steel with the syncrowave 180 weld?

About 3/16". As mentioned earlier if you are welding plate, then multiple passes with proper joint prep can increase your material thickness. You can figure about .001 inches of material thickness requires 1 amp of welding current for tig. Therefore, 3/16" is .188 requiring roughly 180 amps to weld, 1/4" is .250 requiring roughly 250 amps of tig welding current. These number actually change a little with inverters. You can actually weld thicker material than the rule states because of the fast switching on the signals from the inverter technology.

[weldingisfun]

Hey Tom,

I have to tell you that I am in the same boat as you are with what to buy and what you will be welding. I also have been demoing a ton of machines on thursday and friday(hurricane power outage boredom). I have come to the conclusion that the syncro 180 and mm210 will do great for what I want to do. When you become good a welding with the 180 you can always upgrade with the pulser unit and a good water cooled torch for the aluminum. You can use the mm210 for the tube chassis' that you will be building but check with what race guidelines you have to follow ie: NHRA rollcages have to tig welded. not sure about tube chassis' though even though I can't imagine it being different. Also, the mm210 will work great for exhaust tubing but I would definitely use the 180 on the manifolds(especially turbo manifolds). In my opinion, for a total of about $2900 for both machines you can't beat the performance to price ratio, not to mention both of these machines do have the ability to pay for themselves and make you money.

[T0M]

if the nhra requires rollcages to be tig weldd, there must be a reason.
the only think I could think of is that careless mig welding can cause cold starts and penetration be somewhat deceiving. but either way If the manifolds need tig welding then I need a syncrowave 180 or Maybe I can check some of those numbers hawk posted and look for an syncrowavev250.

I heard there are some reliablity issues with inverted tigs or advance squarewave units, is this true?