Help something wrong with new smith regulator for mm252

[big mike]

Call Smith,800-843-7912,I would imagine they will gladly send you a replacement or expalin what is going on and help you fix your problem.

[clint738]

Clint, Victor makes a true flow meter in the same price range. See if the LWS will swap you one of those.

I would prefer to use a Victor product. I guess since I grew up around them, I have more confidence in them. When I emailed the guy at the AirGas store he said he would call Miller again. So it sounds like I may get another Smith as a replacement for the replacement...
I have never seen AirGas stock anything other than Radnor products, so I'm afraid if I tried to exchange for another brand they may want to push their Radnor brand since they don't stock the Victor flow meters in the stores. I would rather take a Smith product over a Radnor product since I think Smith has been around longer.

Are u sure that u don't have a tank that is contaminated ?
I have used Smith torches with Smith regulators for many years. Have even switched back & forth from propane & Acy. With same regulators.
My 350P runs almost every day for 1-1/2 year still has Smith reg. on it. I never back off stem or bleed off tank, just turn off & back on next day.
I do buy a true flow meter if I replace them and run flow meter on my Tig.
Possible to have 2 bad regulators but not probable. I would call Smith and ask them before drive another 80 mile.
>> any welding shops near u ? Most of us hv a extra regulator u could borrow to do ur project for weekend?
Greg

gnforge, I've been wondering if the tank could be the problem too but I've never heard of getting a contaminated tank so I wouldn't know how to verify it. Would it just be my word against the AirGas supplier? There are 2 different AirGas stores I'm referring to in this discussion, the local "little" one in town is where I got my Argon/Co2 tank from. They only carry one size, the 300. So it will be a beast to reload back in my truck even with the help of a friend. The 2nd AirGas is the one 40+ miles away and they are the bigger store that I bought the MM252 from.

I've never dealt with regulator issues before, since this is the first tank I've ever rented for myself. So I'm not sure what to request they do that is reasonable? Will they simply exchange for another full tank no questions asked and can they check this tank and the replacement for any contamination? During all this purging and testing to find out what the problem is, and the actual 30 minutes of welding I first got out of the bottle, I have used 100 PSI from the tank. So now tank pressure is around 2400 where it was at 2500 when I first put the regulator on.

I haven't checked if there are any welding shops nearby, but if there were I wouldn't want to put their working regulator on my bottle if there is a possibility of it jacking up there regulator too if the tank is in fact contaminated. I would then feel obligated to replace their regulator or pay for it to be fixed.

Call Smith,800-843-7912,I would imagine they will gladly send you a replacement or expalin what is going on and help you fix your problem.

Thanks for the Smith's contact info big mike!
Since AirGas is contacting Miller for a replacement I will see if they can resolve it first. But I may contact Smith and see if they can view my videos and tell me if the problem is in the regulator or could it be related to contamination or an issue in the welder.

Has anyone been able to view the videos at the links I put up?? Just want to see if they are working for everyone.

For those of you who can view the videos, can you narrow down where you think the problem maybe?? Smith regulator, tank contamination, or something with the welder???

Thank you all for you help!

[cope]

The flow gauge is not working right, but it is possible that the tank has crud in it. I would take it back and get a swap out.

[clint738]

Looks like someone else had a similar issue with a Smith regulator a while back. Wish he would have posted a follow up though.

Can't view his video, so just going off what he said about the needle deflections.

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/showthread.php?29019-Smith-Regulator-problem&highlight=flowmeter

[clint738]

Let me first say that Miller and AirGas have fantastic customer service!
There may be some issues with the quality control of Smith though unless it is possible to have random issues with tanks fouling up regulators?

Called the AirGas store 40+miles away and told him what the 2nd regulator was doing with the low pressure dropping to zero and staying there till I released the mig trigger.

He called Miller and got them to send the regulator to my home address so I didn't have to make the 80+ mile round trip drive. That was on Monday. Tuesday I got home from work and there was the overnighted regulator waiting on my door step for me. Outstanding, Fast service!



One thing I sort of questioned though was the replacement regulator has these rings around the shaft that goes in the tank? The other 2 regulators didn't have those markings, so I'm wondering if this is a rebuilt used regulator rather than a brand new regulator?

The one with the rings is on the left (it was in the shipped box) and the one on the right is the 2nd New faulty regulator that wouldn't maintain the output pressure.



Here is something else I noticed about the regulator that came in the box (on the left). The low pressure side needle does not drop all the way down to zero (rest against the pin).



I called Smith about the low pressure side not returning to the pin and they though it could be spring related. I'm going to email them and send them the pics and videos.

Now I tested this regulator and found this one maintains the low pressure output like it should. So my biggest question is why the low pressure side doesn't drop all the way to the pin and if this means the readings will not be accurate now, like is 25 cfh really 25 cfh on this unit since it will not drop all the way down?

Here are the videos:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2qwgwzgly0v4xrq/20130507_212401.mp4

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mek7duzl780r933/20130507_213028.mp4

I noticed one more thing too. I turned off the bottle and left things as they were with the low pressure side needle set to 25cfh. Came back about 20 minutes later and saw the low pressure side need had increased in pressure.
Is this normal?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0djy094otl10u2n/20130507_221956.mp4

So should this 3rd Smith flow gauge go back as well?

[MMW]

First I'll say you are very patient. I feel bad for anyone who has these problems that don't get fixed. What are the odds of three regs being bad?

The high side of the reg should not bleed off into the low side. I might expect it from an old used reg but not a new one. Since you purged the tank valve before installing the reg I would think that no foriegn objects were pushed into the reg itself. Only disassembly would tell though. I wish I had a way to fix it for you.

Do you know of anyone local with a welder that you could borrow their reg?

[tackit]

Ask them if you can make up the difference between the regulator and a new flow meter/regulator gage.

[clint738]

First I'll say you are very patient. I feel bad for anyone who has these problems that don't get fixed. What are the odds of three regs being bad?

The high side of the reg should not bleed off into the low side. I might expect it from an old used reg but not a new one. Since you purged the tank valve before installing the reg I would think that no foriegn objects were pushed into the reg itself. Only disassembly would tell though. I wish I had a way to fix it for you.

Do you know of anyone local with a welder that you could borrow their reg?

MMW, if I were doing this for a living it might not be as patient, but since I grew up welding I plan to keep up my practice mainly as a hobby and for helping out friends. I may make a few pits and sell them if I get time, but right now I have other projects going on to.

In 20 years I have never had regulator issues like this. Never once have I ever had a problem with Oxy/Acet torch regulators, but maybe I was just lucky? Never did I have issues with our shop torch regulators, nor on the welding trucks.

I always crack the tank valve before installing the regulator to make sure nothing from the threads will get pushed into the regulator. I inspected the tank threads to make sure there were not metal shaving or foreign material present. And before installing the regulator hose to the welder even purged the hose with the regulator to make sure nothing in the hose (if present) would get pushed into the welder.

I don't know any welders around that I could borrow a reg from.

Ask them if you can make up the difference between the regulator and a new flow meter/regulator gage.

Well, I called but the guy at the out of town AirGas was out to lunch so I used some of my lunch break to go visit the local AirGas. Show the sales man in there and a Lincoln rep the videos and pictures and the Lincoln rep said the leaking on to the low pressure side can be caused over time from a gauge sitting with the screw left adjusted in and over time if its adjusted a small crack can occur that can let the gas pass through. He said it would only be a matter of time until it would fail completely. The Lincoln rep said the issue with the needle not returning to 0 (the pin) can be due to the gauge (I assume meant the low pressure side?) being over pressured and that causes some copper piece to deform. He suggested since it was "new", to send it back in for a replacement, so I think I will be looking to replace this one too.
You'll have to understand I don't know the correct terms for the internal parts of these gauges, so I can't spit out exactly all they told me. I just expect the gauges to work when I go to use them. When they have always worked fine in the past, there was no need to learn about them further.

When I called the out of town AirGas back he said the Miller guy told him he tested the gauge to make sure it would work. I guess I'm wondering why he didn't catch that the low pressure needle was not at 0 (the pin) ?

When I told him what the Lincoln rep at the other AirGas store said (basically that the gauge had to be a rebuild since the creeping low pressure side would have been caused by the screw being left screwed in under pressure over time and then the crack forming) he said he was lying. He then gave me the number for the guy at Miller who checked the gauge (Kevin).

So when I get time I will call Kevin and see what he says.

And round and round this goes....

[clint738]

Ask them if you can make up the difference between the regulator and a new flow meter/regulator gage.

Which one would you suggest I ask them about? I have really no experience in buying regs or flow meters so I wouldn't know the pros and cons of each.

[tackit]

Which one would you suggest I ask them about? I have really no experience in buying regs or flow meters so I wouldn't know the pros and cons of each.

I like this one, check with them just to be sure your hose will work, it will save you $20. 5/8-18 RH threads is what the new flow meter says it has.

http://store.cyberweld.com/smflreh11.html#pdItemDataTabs

[clint738]

Looked at it again last night and it is still doing the same thing with the needle not going down to zero (the pin). When pressing the mig trigger the low pressure needle drops a little more (about 1 cfh before) by about 2 cfh now and holds.

Turned off the bottle with the low pressure needle reading 25cfh and the high pressure side reading about 2300 PSI.
Checked on it this morning to look for leaks and see if it crept higher and the high pressure needle had dropped a lot and the low pressure side had increased to past 35 cfh.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gii67i5hebfyzk8/20130509_074100.mp4

[tackit]

I would be running a flow meter even if the reg was perfect.

[cope]

I agree with tackit. This is what I am running. You can often find it on eBay cheaper.

http://www.usaweld.com/Welding-Flowmeter-p/12020-f.htm

[clint738]

I would be running a flow meter even if the reg was perfect.

Why would you spend the money on a flow meter if you had a perfectly good regulator that measured flow rates (just without the floating ball thing)?

How would a flow meter with the ball thing be any better? Is 25cfh different on one than the other. I'm new to regulator selections, so I would like to hear the pros and cons of each.

Thanks!

[MMW]

Why would you spend the money on a flow meter if you had a perfectly good regulator that measured flow rates (just without the floating ball thing)?

How would a flow meter with the ball thing be any better? Is 25cfh different on one than the other. I'm new to regulator selections, so I would like to hear the pros and cons of each.

Thanks!

I run regs on my migs & a flowmeter on my tig. The flow meters are supposed to be more accurate. It just happened that way for me cause that's what I ended up with. I could care less as long as gas flows & I can adjust it I'm fine. Doesn't even have to be super accurate either. Almost every mig has a reg, not a flowmeter. Nothing wrong with regs IMO. I have never had a problem/situation where I couldn't use a reg.