Millermatic 210 or 251?

[Seth]

To preface my question I'll give you a little background and a rough outline of what I'd like to do with a welder. I'm 18 and live on my parents farm, but in addition to doing farm repair and fabrication, I also do a lot of automotive work and repair. I've self-taught myself to mig-weld on the little Weld-Pak 100 my dad bought me 5 years ago. I've probably welded 40lbs of .035in flux-core total, but I'm pretty adept at just about anything within the little machines range.

In the next several weeks, I'll be embarking on major body repair on several cars, so I'll need a good mig that I can acheive good results on 22 gauge sheetmetal with.

I have borrowed a friends Hobart 135, but I'm not real happy with it's performance. I used good-quality .023in wire and c25 gas, but it was really hard to obtain an acceptable weld. the biggest problem I experianced was the wire balling up on the end, which made it real hard to get a good clean weld bead. Like I've said, I'm self-taught, and haven't studied welding formally, so maybe I was experiancing globular transfer or something, but I'll tell you that when it wasn't balling up, I could weld pretty good. I suppose I really ought to take a welding class, but I'm already taking 17 credits this fall in addition to the farm work I already do, so I really don't have the time.

I have a little Lincoln Weld-Pak 100 that I've had for years, and while I'll vouch for the build quality of the machine, I think I'd be happier with something a little better than the entry-level machine I'm using now. I have considered getting a shield gas setup for the Weld-Pak, but I still love the little dude for emergency farm repairs anywhere withing range of 110v power, so it would be a pain to continually switch back and forth from flux-core to gas shield.

The number one thing I'm looking for is superb performance on 22 gauge, and maybe even 24 gauge sheet. I also do work on metal up to 3/8" or so and ocassionally on steel up to a 1/2" or more, but I can deal with using my old Lincoln "buzz-box" in those rare cases.

The previous being said, I've pretty much narrowed my choices down the the Millermatic 210 or the Millermatic 251. The 210 is large enough for most of the work I'll be doing, but I'm just wondering if it's worth the extra $500 for the nicer features of the 251. I like the infinte voltage control of the 251, although the 210 has seven taps which would seem to offer enough adjustability. The digital meters on the 251 are way cool, although they might not actually offer a big difference in actual welding performance. I guess to sum it up, the 251 has a lot of really cool features over the 210, but would I really see much of a performance difference as a result?

I probably would've just borrowed the Hobart from my friend, but I used it for small job the other day and it SUCKED! To start with, the machine has hardly been used, but it has been abused. The gas regulator is partly broken, but I was able to guess on the gas setting well enough. It also seemed that the gas solenoid in the machine was either stuck all the way open or partially open.

Here's a pic of the weld I made the other day. It's a sump on a tractor fuel tank. Please excuse the rust, I've got to sandblast the whole thing now and paint it.

Thanks for any input, this is a big investment, so I'm trying to get as much info as possible.

[Seth]

You'll probably think that my crappy weld is just a result of my lack of skill, so I'll put up a pic of another weld I made a few months ago. It was made with the same Hobart 135, same wire, same gas, but the welder wasn't half-broken then. I also didn't have as much of a problem with the wire balling up then either.

[ROCK]

HI SETH.......... the fact that the regulator was broken and the gas valve being stuck on or part way on.......... Well that is part of the problem..... Yes sound's used and abused........... Advise the owner of the unit to give us a call and we will see what we can do for him........Also be advised MILLER/HOBART are both owned by the same company which is ITW......... And we work quite well together..

If you visit www.hobartwelders.com you will find the conversation between the 210 and 251 have been discussed for 3 years. Many welders have a hard time makeing up thier minds on which to choose. I am suggesting this site and the hobart site you do a search on and see what other customers have had to say..................

You are by no means alone in your delema of which one to choose..... I think by reading what a multitude of other customers have asked and have said will aid you in determining which machine to choose....

After all Seth it is your hard earned cash........ Sometime the more opinions the better off you are........... They even compared welds with pictures from each respecable unit your asking about........

Regards...........and enjoy the decision process.........Rock..
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[JeramyK]

Hi Seth :

I would place my vote on the MM 210. I just got one about 2 weeks ago and I love it. I too do body work and other auto-related welding (as a hobby). The 210 does sheetmetal very well and to be honest I actually like the voltage taps over the infinate adjustment on my buddy's MM 135. It's convenient for me. Just set it and go.

The 210 will do everything your Weld-pak would do and then some. Not to mention it has a much higher duty cycle. But in the end I'm sure you won't be disappointed with either one.

One thing I'd like to add that I came across. The 210 (probably the 251 also) comes setup with a dual-groove drive roll for size .030 or .035 wire. If you're going to run .023 you'll want to get the proper drive roll kit. Any Miller retailer should be able to get it for you or there are even a few online retailers that can ship it. I got mine from www.airgas.com.

Good luck with the purchase. You're looking at 2 very fine machines. I'm sure you'll be very happy with your decision.

-Jeramy

[Seth]

Many thanks to the responses, I hope no one was disgusted with my verbose post. I'm taking English Comp, so I hope to improve my writing skills (and perhaps learn to write in a more concise manner ).

I still haven't made a decision, but you have contributed knowledge that will assist me. My primary consideration, like I have said, is the performance while welding sheetmetal. It seems from what you've said, that the 210 is as adept at welding sheetmetal as the 251, which is an important revalation. I guess I'm unusually concerned (paranoid, if you wish) about a welder's ability to handle sheetmetal. I guess this is greatly a result of the poor performance of my friend's Hobart 135.

I suppose I am very demanding though, since I almost always fit patch panels for a butt-weld, versus a lap weld. Obviously a lap weld would be easier to weld, since there is more metal to absorb the heat, but a butt weld makes a much nicer repair, and requires less body filler to obtain the correct contour. I've never been real fond of flanging sheetmetal to allow a lap weld to sit level with the surrouding bodywork, because it involves a joint where moisture could collect and cause rust.

I guess in summation, I'll see if I can try out both machines a my local dealer, and make my decision after that.

Actually, I buy all my welding supplies at Airgas, I know several of the people who work at my local store, and the are the most helpful with anything I trouble them with. The also have very competitive prices.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get the welder in a week or so, and I'll be sure and let you all know how this works out.

Seth

[MAC702]

Hi Seth, Dont ignore the MM175, either. It actually has better results on the thin stuff than the bigger machines. Miller's catalog agrees, rating it down to 24-gauge sheet, while the 210 and 251 are rated for 22-gauge.

Especially if price is an issue will this machine pay off. The few times you weld something more than 1/4-inch with your wire feeder, just use two passes. And it comes with drive rolls for .023-.035.

I use one on almost a daily basis as the portable feeder on my truck, powered by my Trailblazer 301G. I also have a feeder for the Trailblazer, an older 80A which is much lighter not having a transformer inside, but when working right next to the truck, I use the MM175.

It works great with gas, but one word of caution, I have just received my THIRD Smith regulator that comes with the MM175. The first two failed right out of the box. I haven't installed the third one yet because I'm using my old one again. Am I the only one having a problem with Smith regulators? This machine is running 100% CO2, but I am using an adapter that was provided to me by my Miller dealer.

[ROCK]

MAC702.........Ah I know what your problem is.... Hate to be the one to inform you of this.......Sorry it is not the regulator....The Regulator supplied with the MM units is for argon or 75/25 argon/co2. The regulator will not run straight co2 well at all.....co2 is quite cold and the freezeing and thawing is failing the regulator on the inside.....

Miller does sell a co2 regulator and that part number is 212492. Please contact your distributor for availability and delivery. List price is $84.30 and they are in stock........Be safe.......Rock
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[MAC702]

Thanks Rock, after turing in number two, I began to suspect that. But since I didn't want to foot anymore than I had to, I still wanted to believe my Miller dealer who gave me a complimentary adapter. "Surely he would know if the CO2 would freeze it," I thought. But that is also why I have waited before hooking up the next one until after I convert to argon. Nice to hear a confirmation though. Andy was stumped last year on this issue.

[MAC702]

Thanks Rock, after turing in number two, I began to suspect that. But since I didn't want to foot anymore than I had to, I still wanted to believe my Miller dealer who gave me a complimentary adapter. "Surely he would know if the CO2 would freeze it," I thought. But that is also why I have waited before hooking up the next one until after I convert to argon. Nice to hear a confirmation though. Andy was stumped last year on this issue.

[ROCK]

MAC702.............. Well thanks for stumping Andy.... I like it when that happens....... But in all honesty I didn't know that either until I talked to Smith...... Then after I confirmed for myself (I felt like a dip stick) I figured it out. Typical at the time was that Smith had told me an adaptor would not help this gauge and it was not designed to run C02........... That is why they didn't cover some of my warranty's (the gauges) that I had sent in...........Buy the C02 one you will be much happier........And it is the least expensive gas out there...............Be safe.................Rock

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[Seth]

I did notice that the 175 is rated for 24 gauge when browsing the Miller catalog, but I simply passed it off as a marketing issue, since the 175 is targetet more towards hobbyists who would likely be welding thinner gauge metal.

Unless there is a great difference in the performance of the 175 or the 210 or 251, I think I would rather get the 210 or larger, since I already have my little Weld-Pak. In fact, before I'd consider the 175, I'd probably get a gas kit for my Weld-Pak.

Part of the reason I'd like to get the 210 or 251 (haven't decided which one yet, but I think I'm leaning towards the 210, so I can spend the extra $500 on other tools) is the fact that I would use it a fair amount for thicker guage metal. I have been using my old Lincoln buzz-box for thicker stuff than my Weld-Pak can handle, but I love mig so much more than stick. I can run horizontal butt welds like pro, horizonatal fillet, t-welds and others pretty well, but my out-of-position welding is barely adequate. Basically, I just need to practice more, but I'd gladly use a bigger mig for stuff up to 3/8" or 1/2" than the ol' buzz-box.

I think I'll go demo the 210, 251 and maybe even the 175 next week, so I'll let you know how it goes.

Seth

[Seth]

I tried out the 251 today at our local Airgas, but unfortunately, they didn't have it set up for anything smaller than .035 solid wire, so I was unable to accurately test it on 22 gauge, but I was able to weld the 22 gauge satisfactorily with the .035 wire if I pulsed the gun, so I'm confident that I could do pretty well with .023 wire. Since the machine wasn't optimized for thin metal, I spent most of my time trying it out on 1/4". Wow is all I can say as for it's performance. I'm used to welding with fluxcore, so the solid wire had a different feel to it, but the machine made me look like a pro! The gas was 75%argon/25%co2, which I wasn't famililar with, but I assume it would perform simularly with c25, which is probably what I would use.

Unfortunately, Airgas didn't have a 210 for demo use, but I think the 251 has won me over. I don't think I'll feel bad about the extra $500 once it's gone , but I know I'd be constantly wondering "what if" if I got the 210. I do think the extra accuracy and adjustability of the infinite controls and digital meters will benefit me, and the 250 amp potential means it will be more powerful than my old buzz-box! I suppose I'll play around with the stick welder though, just so I can say I can weld stick too, though.

I did learn that in addition to the finer control of the potentiometer voltage control on the 251, it also adjusts down to a lower voltage, so that should help on thin gauge metal. I forgot exactly how much, but I think the 251 goes down something like 2 volts lower than the 210.

Hopefully I can pick up the 251 sometime later this week and get started on the sheetmetal work on the '66 Rambler my brother and I are restoring. We have the car stripped down the the bare shell, and now we are ready to start body repair.

Seth

[myhemi]

Seth, your investigational work sounds like it is paying off for you. in decisions like these its always hard to find out which machine may be the better one, and can I afford that. maybe the other question is, can this machine pay for itself when i do purchase it? all the equipement that i have must pay for itself. sometimes it is easier to start with the smaller (210) and then check your needs if you need to move up from there. i am looking at the same 2 machines that you are, and i have decided to go with the 210, but i am also using the spoolgun feature. i figured that if that machine will pay for itself in my shop then i can always go bigger later, but when your on a budget you have to consider alot of other things that play a role. A person can't go wrong with buying miller right now, i believe that they are in the lead for equipement, and will stay that way for some time. good luck

[PISTOL8]

210 VS. 250

SETH I HAD THIS PROBLEM LAST YEAR AND MY DEALER LET ME TEST DRIVE BOTH. I HAVE HAD MY MM210 FOR A YEAR NOW LOVE IT. I HAVE USED IT ON ALMOST EVERYTHING FROM SHEET TO 1/2" AND GOT GREAT RESULTS.SPOOLGUN IS ALSO GREAT.